Top 15 largest debtor nations

twistedfister · Number of posts: 30 Registration date: 2008-08-01

I was suprised to find that the U.S. is "only" 15th. A few other suprises in there as well. Until now I had assumed that the U.S. was going to fall the hardest, now I'm not so sure.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/30308959/

wilheldp · Number of posts: 191 Registration date: 2007-10-12

I think the US is only ranked that low because of how the data was used and the fact that our GDP is nearly 3 times larger than the next biggest GDP on the list. Our national debt is the biggest in the world, by at least double the nearest competitor.

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Phlogiston · Number of posts: 621 Location: NOLA Registration date: 2007-10-25

Its not quite double and only one third of the UK per capita. The gross external debt falls of fast after the big 4. Theres only a couple others over a trillion.

2. United Kingdom - 336%
External debt (as % of GDP): 336%
External debt per capita: $153,616

Gross external debt: $9.388 trillion (Q4 2008)
2008 GDP: $2.787 trillion

8. France - 168%
External debt (as % of GDP): 168%
External debt per capita: $78,070

Gross external debt: $5.001 trillion
2008 GDP: $2.978 trillion

T-10. Germany - 137.5%
External debt (as % of GDP): 137.5%
External debt per capita: $63,767

Gross external debt: $5.25 trillion (Q4 2008)
2008 GDP: $3.818 trillion

15. United States - 95.09%
External debt (as % of GDP): 95.09%
External debt per capita: $44,358

Gross external debt: $13.627 trillion (2008 Q3)
2008 GDP: $14.330 trillion

twistedfister · Number of posts: 30 Registration date: 2008-08-01

wilheldp wrote:

I think the US is only ranked that low because of how the data was used and the fact that our GDP is nearly 3 times larger than the next biggest GDP on the list. Our national debt is the biggest in the world, by at least double the nearest competitor.

Could it be argued that the absolute amount of a debt is somewhat meaningless unless evaluated in context with the debtors ability generate income and service/pay down the debt?

twistedfister · Number of posts: 30 Registration date: 2008-08-01

Phlogiston wrote:

Its not quite double and only one third of the UK per capita. The gross external debt falls of fast after the big 4. Theres only a couple others over a trillion.

2. United Kingdom - 336%
External debt (as % of GDP): 336%
External debt per capita: $153,616

Putting aside for a moment the issue of whether or not an abstraction such as a "country" can actually owe a debt, I found the U.K. debt to be quite stunning.

It's very interesting that almost without exception, most every nation that is considered "wealthy" and blessed with a high standard of living....is also heavily in debt.

Who are the creditors? Everyone storing their wealth in a fiat currency?

Static4367 · Subject: Re: Top 15 largest debtor nations Tue May 19, 2009 2:53 pm

This doesn't represent what I think people are taking it to represent.

""External debt" is defined as the total public and private debt owed to nonresidents repayable in foreign currency, goods, or services "

If you are trying to judge government debt then this is not a representative measurement. The private component obviously skews the results because some nations might have smaller government debts but more consumer borrowing.

Secondly, measuring only external debt skews this dramatically. US gov't debt is not only held by foreigners; anyone who owns a gov't bond is lending the gov't money. Because the US economy is much larger I would guess that a much larger percentage of its debt is owned by its own citizens.

I was not able to find a list of gov't debt/GDP including recent statistics, but I think you can be pretty confident given the recent spending spree that the US is near the top for developed economies (comparing the US to Zimbabwe doesn't really tell you anything).

Phlogiston · Number of posts: 621 Location: NOLA Registration date: 2007-10-25

Static4367 wrote:

Secondly, measuring only external debt skews this dramatically. US gov't debt is not only held by foreigners; anyone who owns a gov't bond is lending the gov't money. Because the US economy is much larger I would guess that a much larger percentage of its debt is owned by its own citizens.

So you are saying the internal debt is part of the telling of the story?
I think I agree which seems perfect considereing an anarchist point of view. China or Bill Gates is the same to all of us US'itens.
I would like to here more since I am not that informed.

Static4367 · Subject: Re: Top 15 largest debtor nations Wed May 20, 2009 11:33 am

Phlogiston wrote:

Static4367 wrote:

Secondly, measuring only external debt skews this dramatically. US gov't debt is not only held by foreigners; anyone who owns a gov't bond is lending the gov't money. Because the US economy is much larger I would guess that a much larger percentage of its debt is owned by its own citizens.

So you are saying the internal debt is part of the telling of the story?
I think I agree which seems perfect considereing an anarchist point of view. China or Bill Gates is the same to all of us US'itens.
I would like to here more since I am not that informed.

It depends on what type of argument you are trying to make. I am assuming everyone here really cares more about the gov't soaking them for taxes and doesn't care so much whether the guy next door has credit card debt owned by a foreign bank.

If you are primarily concerned with gov't debt then, yes, internal debt is equally important. You as a tax payer don't care where you money goes after you pay the taxes. You only care about how much the gov't is taking out of your pocket, and in aggregate how much that process hurts the economy.

twistedfister · Number of posts: 30 Registration date: 2008-08-01

Static, good work pointing out the distinction between external and internal debt, I was never aware of the distinction until now.

Would the term "national debt" include both external and internal debt?

The dictionary definition is: 'The total financial obligations of a national government.'

My primary interest in posting the report was to determine which countries were in the biggest financial trouble, and thus to be avoided.

Static4367 · Subject: Re: Top 15 largest debtor nations Sat May 23, 2009 1:55 pm

National debt would include both and would exclude private consumer and business debt which is included in the external debt number.

Static4367 · Subject: Re: Top 15 largest debtor nations Sun May 24, 2009 3:27 pm

You all might find this interesting:

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

twistedfister · Number of posts: 30 Registration date: 2008-08-01

Good link. Haven't looked at the debt clock web site for a while. I like the current version, much more interesting that the old skool one that merely showed the single debt number whizzing by.

twistedfister · Number of posts: 30 Registration date: 2008-08-01

This is interesting, Bill Bonner talks about the debt to gold ratio of the U.S. vs. other countries.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/bonner/bonner394.html