In response to Dylboz request, I'm going to share a little bit about my defoo. I hope this will be of benefit to the families of those in FDR, and may give a little insight into what their son or daughter is thinking and feeling. It's a bit long, but I think it's worth a read.

Participating in FDR and talking to Stef was the necessary but not sufficient factor in my defoo. Without his advice (especially relistening to podcasts 109-113 "But my parents were really nice" -- if I remember correctly, this series is mandatory listening for anyone hoping to understand FDR's approach to the family) and the advice of board members, I doubt I would have done it. By the time I left The Conversation, I was a big-time member -- philosopher king donator, over a thousand posts on the boards. I was in deep. I don't doubt that that investment in FDR helped push me toward conforming with the defoo.

A few months before I actually sat down with my parents and called off the relationship, I had been dropping hints that I wasn't happy with the relationship, and that I wasn't happy with the way I was treated growing up. So, finally, I made an appointment with my parents to sit down and talk about the problems I was having with the family. The conversation didn't go well. My parents backtracked to self-serving lies, I said hurtful things about their relationship, and I decided to ask for a break from the relationship. I took a few last things they had at their house that I needed and I left. That was over a year ago, and I haven't spoken with them since.

The main justification for my defoo was that I thought my parents often put their own needs for approval from their peers over what I wanted and what was in my best interest. In the year since my defoo, I've learned of other things, such as my mother being physically abusive of one of my younger siblings. I'm also told that they've been spreading lies about me in an attempt to slander me to the rest of my foo, including the few with whom I'm trying to maintain relationships.

In the year+ since, I've tried to maintain contact with a few family members, but it's hard, because many of them sort of come as a package deal. At this point, I talk to the family members I like, and don't talk to the ones I don't like. I don't feel like I'm missing anything by not speaking with most of the adults in my foo. It makes tracking family medical history harder, and as a young adult I wouldn't mind the financial support they could offer, and they're not dullards, but I've made other close relationships (first in FDR, then in the real world) that fill the need for intimacy and good conversation.

I really don't think there's anything intrinsically valuable about family relationships. For some people, there's too much baggage to make the relationships fulfilling in adult life, and for others, there's too much history to abandon the relationship in adult life.

I would humbly suggest the following to any defooed parents reading this: respect your child's decision when they say they don't want to talk to you anymore. I would also suggest that you consider the possibility that Stef's role is not to plant false memories, but to validate your child's own feelings and experiences in ways that you have not yet done. Sit back and meditate on the idea that your child was right to defoo from you. They probably have some real grievances with you, perhaps enough to warrant ending the relationship if not addressed. Even if you end up concluding that you weren't that bad as parents, you'll probably better understand your child's decision. If your child decides to think about refooing, you'll be ready to have an honest discussion of their feelings as soon as they show interest. Even if your children don't come back, you'll also probably come across some of your own character flaws, and you can address them to better your existing relationships.

I hope that came across as clear and not too preachy, and I hope you find it useful. Please feel free to ask me any questions, I'll try to answer them.

That's a great post (esp. but not at all solely the second-last paragraph) and yeah, I think it could be very helpful for parents of defooed children to ask you questions, so by all means!

There may be a danger in too closely identifying defooing with Stefan/FDR's influence and so thinking that when the child gets out of FDR everything will be okay again.

I have no idea about the family situations and relationships of the parents on LM and their children of course (with two exceptions) so these remarks are just very general and if they don't apply then by all means, ignore them.

Congratulations, Deep Purple. For what it's worth, it sounds like you've made a good decision for yourself.

On the other hand, it really does seem to me that the deFOO procedure is unnecessary for the vast majority of people. Not that anybody shouldn't do it, of course, that's for each person to decide. But most children are not abused. And then most people go to college or get a job and have moved out either from that age (eighteen) or within a couple of years, when they have enough resources to do that. As I think it was Sonia who said, the process of emancipation from our parents is a natural and gradual process which in general does not require any drastic actions.

But I believe Stef has provided some great insights. I think the idea of applying libertarian principles in our personal lives is really beautiful. It would be great if more people recognised that familial relationships were voluntary. Remembering that everyone has the freedom to disassociate is key to maintaining quality associations.

In the end, though, I think most people don't actually need to deFOO. Being honest with their family and maintaining realistic expectations is probably sufficient. The family of origin is always going to be far from perfect, but it's unlikely that they will have absolutely nothing to offer us, and besides, they spent a large part of their adult lives looking after us. People who had happy childhoods are often glad to give back to their FOO later on, even when doing so might not be the funnest thing in the world. Staying in touch with our parents doesn't need to cost very much. And I don't consider accepting this unchosen obligation to be unlibertarian - I guess treating decent, well-meaning parents with respect and care after we've grown up is just a part of the ancient social fabric. Does this make me a conservative?

Sorry if I'm dragging you off-topic, Deep Purple. You made a great post. I guess this is my way of explaining why I won't deFOO. Best wishes to you.

and what a great followup (qua thread) and first (qua new person) post!

I don't have much of a relationship with my family, and I guess I never have since the beginning of my own post-adolescence. I don't have any grudges against my parents, and I don't harbor any ill-will towards them. I call either of them about once or twice a year, when holidays and birthdays prompt me. When we happen to see each other, it's good-natured and pleasant, but in a way that strangers are good natured and pleasant for short periods of time.

This process started much earlier than my encounters with Molyneux. But one thing that changed since then is that I no longer feel bad about the relationship (or lack thereof) that I have with my family. Given that they contact me about as infrequently as I do them, I now realize that we have exactly the relationship that we want from each other, even if some of us might occasionally give it a perfunctory, "We should talk more often".

I will never understand the need for people to put a label (whether it's "defoo" or something else) on their choice of how much time, if any at all, they spend with their families. Making an act out of it strikes me as a cruel way of lashing out at the people you no longer wish to associate with. As if it's not enough to stop spending time or contacting them, but you have to let them know that, hey, I don't like you anymore. I wouldn't go through such a process with a friend that I no longer wished to be around, so why would I do it to people who ostensibly care a great deal about me?

I would add to Stewart's point that up until the point at which a child does leave the nest, for whatever reason, that child has no other basis for comparison, whereas you, defooDad, have had a life of experience from which to base your thoughts. It is not really a fair comparison, I think, to expect a child to understand life as well as his parents do. The child must make his or her own choices based upon the data at hand. And from that comes learning experiences. There is no way to know what the world is all about until you experience it and it seems you are expecting the child to have wisdom that is impossible for a child to have.

Just some thoughts to add to the mix...

- NonE

As ususal? !!! Wow. I need to bookmark this. Thanks! Can I use it to beat up other people with when they think I'm an idiot?

- NonE

DP--Thank you for that post. I hope parents read it and are honest with themselves while they think about it.

GoldTrader--Welcome! What a great way to introduce yourself!

And as always, my $.02....sorry if it gets a little emotional and dramatic.

The first question I wanted to ask you (DP) as I read this is very basic--is there any part of you that still loves your parents?

Then I thought, no, here's a better way of asking: Is there any part of you that still wants to love your parents?

If the answer is no, then that's that. But if the honest answer is yes, then what next?

If that desire is there, but the relationship is sick (by that I mean in the sense of "ill,") do either you or your parents have the tools to help it get well on your own? Would it be worth the effort to acquire them?

Here's why I ask that, with a story from my life. A couple years ago, after I had moved out of my parent's home, my mother revealed to me that she nearly divorced my father when I was a baby. I couldn't believe it. But she said at that time she was living in a house with nothing but anger and pain and she didn't see any way out. She was done. There were viscious fights and shouting matches, but I was so young, I only have a flash or scrap of memory of it. I can't remember if she said she had seen a lawyer or just had his name.

I don't know what the whole problem was. I guess my dad was probably domineering sometimes and maybe even an asshole sometimes and thought my mom wasn't submissive enough. Maybe.

But before they took that last step, they went to counseling. I don't know how the counselor did it, but she must have gotten through to my dad. She taught my parents how a marriage is supposed to work, what acceptable needs are, and how to meet them. She taught them how to talk to each other. I know it doesn't always work but thankfully it did work with them. I don't even care if it doesn't work most of the time. It was worth it for them, and ultimately me, even though I probably would have gotten twice as much stuff for Christmas if they had divorced instead.

I'm grateful that they didn't stay together for the sake of the kids but stayed together because they learned how to love each other in a healthy way. And that's the part I did remember growing up. They're still going strong and even though I don't see them a lot and even though they have nothing in common with me politically, religiously, or philosophically, I'm still happy to see them when I do.

When any part of your body is sick, you go see a doctor. He does an all-over physical and then runs tests to diagnose and figure out what's wrong.

Based on this one experience, it seems to me that when a relationship is sick, for one person in that relationship to try to diagnose and fix the problem (sometimes by leaving) may not be the best way to go.

If there is still any desire for love in that relationship, I think the best last-ditch effort is to get all parties in front of a counselor who can help get the crap in our heads out of the way of our hearts.

I do support the idea of de-fooing in principle, I'd bet most therapists do, too. But not until it absolutely clear there is no other way. And that is where my repudiation of Molyneux's "ideas" about psychology begins.

The crime--the brutal, sick crime--that Molyneux does is focus solely on separation, the sooner the better. He pretends the love doesn't exist and pours every ounce of coal onto the fire of anger--and then laughs while it burns. Shame on him for all of the unnecessary pain he has caused.

[/emotion off]

Cheers Conrad and Questeon! It's nice to be here.

I wanted to add that I think there are many different ways of dealing with your parents, appropriate to each person's situation. I am happy with mine, and from the sounds of things, Stewart and Deep Purple are happy with theirs. I said in my first post that staying in touch with our parents doesn't need to cost very much - it only costs Stewart a few conversations each year! This is part of why I think most people, even if they don't really desire their parent's company very much, can afford to be a little bit altruistic and maintain some form of communication, even from a distance. If you are in the position of genuinely not wanting to invest effort in your parents, then that seems like a humane way of dealing with people who might be helplessly attached to you.

Fortunately, most families enjoy spending some time together and catching up on what everyone is doing.

defoodDad: though I agree with the others who said that an adult's decision to maintain or not to maintain their relationship with their parents is ultimately up to them, I also believe (for the reasons I've been giving) that in most instances the humane choice is to maintain some form of contact. Just as it would be inhumane for a parent to kick their child out on the street at 18 with no more support whatsoever, it's also inhumane to break all contact with parents who tried their best.