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 Cults: the individual and the community

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Stewart



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PostSubject: Re: Cults: the individual and the community   Mon May 26, 2008 10:58 am

Sure. My post was mostly in response to Static's question: "Is there some state of consciousness that only crazy people achieve that allows them plausible deniability of obvious facts?"

I'm curious, Conrad: What exactly do you think is brilliant about Stefan?
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NonEntity



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PostSubject: Re: Cults: the individual and the community   Mon May 26, 2008 11:51 am

Stewart wrote:
Sure. My post was mostly in response to Static's question: "Is there some state of consciousness that only crazy people achieve that allows them plausible deniability of obvious facts?"


I have come to the conclusion that we (humans) will do anything (and there are exceptions to everything, of course) rather than to allow our view of the world to be challenged. I would imagine that those who study this stuff seriously have already come up with a word for it, but of that I am not aware.

As an example I give you Dylboz' reaction to the questions I put forth regarding whatever happened on 9/11. He immediately called me a "911Truther" and totally rejected ANYthing I had to say. It did not matter that some of the things I pointed out are blatant conflicts with the laws of reality. He had an emotional reaction which simply would not allow room for any questions to enter, even ones which were irrefutable.

It is interesting. I know I felt pretty much the same as Dyl for the first few years after 9/11. I had seen it with my own eyes, fer chrisakes! It took a long time and a lot of little bits of conflicting data before I was able to allow my mind to consider that it might be other than what it appeared to be.

I have, in the subsequent few years of examining thhis phenomenon, come to the conclusion that we humans operate mostly on myth. Perhaps the level of data in the world with which we have to interact is simply so huge that the only way our brains can deal with it is to mythologize it. I don't know. It is interesting however. I think it is better if we can recognize that we do this rather than to just blow it off as something that a few crazy people do. If we can admit that we are capable of it then we are at least at the first step of greater understanding.

As an aside, I wonder if either Stewart or myself are engaged in this very behavior in our debate/argument/rant-fest over in the "Is it really this simple" thread. Very well could be.

- NonE
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Stewart



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PostSubject: Re: Cults: the individual and the community   Mon May 26, 2008 12:27 pm

NonEntity wrote:
I would imagine that those who study this stuff seriously have already come up with a word for it, but of that I am not aware.


I think the charming word that you're looking for, at least in some matters of cognitive dissonance, is "confabulation". It's often associated with the production of false memories, but in neuroscience it's also used to describe the production of explanations for events which don't conform to one's expectations of themselves and the world around them.


NonEntity wrote:

As an aside, I wonder if either Stewart or myself are engaged in this very behavior in our debate/argument/rant-fest over in the "Is it really this simple" thread.


It's certainly possible.
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NonEntity



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PostSubject: Re: Cults: the individual and the community   Mon May 26, 2008 12:48 pm

Thanks!

Wikipedia: confabulation


Quote:
Confabulation is the confusion of imagination with memory, and/or the confusion of true memories with false memories.

Berlyne (1972) defined confabulation as “…a falsification of memory occurring in clear consciousness in association with an organically derived amnesia.” He distinguished between: (i) “momentary” (or “provoked”) confabulations - fleeting, and invariably provoked by questions probing the subject’s memory – sometimes consisting of “real” memories displaced in their temporal context. (ii) “fantastic” (or “spontaneous”) confabulations - characterised by the spontaneous outpouring of irrelevant associations – sometimes bizarre ideas, which may be held with firm conviction.

Patients who have suffered brain damage or lesions, especially to the Prefrontal cortical regions, may have confabulation of memories as a symptom.

Patients with Korsakoff's syndrome characteristically confabulate by guessing an answer or imagining an event and then mistaking their guess or imagination for an actual memory.

Confabulation is a function of the brain's chemistry. It is a mapping of the activation of neurons to brain activity. [1]

Confabulation can also occur as a result of damage to the Anterior communicating artery (ACoA), in the Circle of Willis.

Confabulation also appears to be a common occurrence in normal individuals under experimental circumstances, as shown by research on choice blindness. [1]

Some military agents, such as BZ, and deliriant drugs such as those found in datura, noticeably scopolamine and atropine, may also cause confabulation.



I KNEW I shouldn't have spent so much time in the Circle of Willis! Wink

- NonE
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Conrad



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PostSubject: Re: Cults: the individual and the community   Mon May 26, 2008 1:20 pm

Stewart wrote:
Sure. My post was mostly in response to Static's question: "Is there some state of consciousness that only crazy people achieve that allows them plausible deniability of obvious facts?"

ah okay.

yeah, i wouldnt' talk of different states of consciousness since it invites the association of categorical rather than gradual differences.

Quote:
I'm curious, Conrad: What exactly do you think is brilliant about Stefan?

he is brilliant in his explanation of economic, psychological, political principles in simple and clear terms. He really is able to take hold of an idea, look at it from all sides, juggle with it, assocyate it with other ideas. i don't know, this is hard to explain. he has really mastered the idea and out it to good use.

Same for looking at a situation (in politics for example) and immediately seeing what is really going on (including examples that I had not read or heard elsewhere yet even though I have read and listened to a shitload of libertarian, austrian economic stuff), especially in the psychological stuff and conversations and analyses before he went full-time i found him often brilliant in how he could immediately spot what was 'really' going on, but now i think i would have to re-listen to a lot of those conversations to see if I still feel that way. but in the past year the psycho-stuff has become too polluted with his own ego-investments and ego-saving, although still he on a regular basis makes very good points.

what he is not, is an original thinker. He lacks the intellectual humility and rigor that come with that and so he allows himself to work on an idea (supposedly of his own), get very enthusiastic about it and then it gets mixed with his giant ego-wishes and narcissism after which point he can no longer look at the idea critically, openly, explorativel, see it from all sides like he does with ideas not his own. and things just escalate until you end up with something like UPB or his Free Will series.
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NonEntity



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PostSubject: Re: Cults: the individual and the community   Mon May 26, 2008 1:32 pm

Hmm. Interesting commentary, Conrad. I think I have to agree with a lot/most of it. Now let's talk about my absolutely brilliant, unique, and world changing conception of "voluntary interaction!" lol!

It's sad in that I think that Stef really has a lot to offer, but I will no longer tolerate his abusive and dishonest nature, regardless of his other values.

(Oh yes, we need to discuss your spelling, too!) Wink

- NonE
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blackacidlizzard



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PostSubject: Re: Cults: the individual and the community   Mon May 26, 2008 2:22 pm

Static4367 wrote:

Why link that particular podcast to the free board?


The donator board is diamond now, the podcast is gold. All podcasts below diamond are posted on the main board.

I think it is as simple as that.

Also, the part of the show being discussed here was not the main thing being discussed. It comprised maybe a fifth of the discussion.
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Conrad



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PostSubject: Re: Cults: the individual and the community   Mon May 26, 2008 2:38 pm

okay, thanks. that does explain it
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Static4367



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PostSubject: Re: Cults: the individual and the community   Mon May 26, 2008 9:31 pm

Thanks for clearing that up Lizard, and thanks for all the thoughts from everyone else.

I apologize if everyone got caught up on "different state of consciousness". That was really just a snide remark, but everyone gave meaningful feedback regardless.

I am still doubtful that Stef doesn't realize when he is making illogical claims simply because they are in such stark contrast to the precise logic used everywhere else. I will keep this all in mind though when viewing his future behavior.
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Phlogiston



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PostSubject: Re: Cults: the individual and the community   Mon May 26, 2008 9:43 pm

Static4367 wrote:


I am still doubtful that Stef doesn't realize when he is making illogical claims simply because they are in such stark contrast to the precise logic used everywhere else. I will keep this all in mind though when viewing his future behavior.

He might know the logic but still feels repulsed or happy depending on how he views things. As this thread points out, our emotional response to him is based on something within ourselves. Why should it be different with him in response to others?
So is his response his logic or his emotion and to what degree?
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Conrad



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PostSubject: Re: Cults: the individual and the community   Mon May 26, 2008 9:49 pm

Static4367 wrote:
Thanks for clearing that up Lizard, and thanks for all the thoughts from everyone else.

I apologize if everyone got caught up on "different state of consciousness". That was really just a snide remark, but everyone gave meaningful feedback regardless.

I am still doubtful that Stef doesn't realize when he is making illogical claims simply because they are in such stark contrast to the precise logic used everywhere else. I will keep this all in mind though when viewing his future behavior.

i think he does know that, at least that it is possible. he is not unaware of its possiblity.

a somewhat related example, in the most recent call-in-show (sorry Mike) he was calling Davidngo on the criticism/questions David had of Stef in the thread with Tyler. Stef in his conversation with David said 4 or 5 times 'I am not trying to corner you or anything' while it was so obvious that he was trying to do exactly that, that he was trying to dismantle david's criticism of Stef by showing that David still had statist/religious people in his life and that david was still not really ready to tell people the truth about anarchy etc.. Also, Stef said in that conversation that he was being genuinely curious about David's behavior, while clearly he was not, while clearly he was just trying to explain away david's criticism by showing what I just wrote about. he had a fixed agenda the moment he asked the unsuspecting david to talk about it. he was never genuinely curious, asking open-ended questions without an agenda of his own. he was only trying to fit david into his 'explanatory' agenda.

what does this have to do with the previous/ well, clearly Stef knows that his behavior will be interpreted in the sense of 'cornering david' and of 'not being curious', and he does his very best to pre-empt such criticism. While pre-empting criticism does by no means in and of itself show that Stef truly is aware of what is really doing, it at least shows tht he is well aware and conscious of that possiblity, he is not blind to it
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reddeerrick



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PostSubject: Re: Cults: the individual and the community   Mon May 26, 2008 10:06 pm

It would be awesome if any of the people here could hear the very first set of premium podcasts that Stefan made. It was a three-part critique of Ayn Rand and objectivism, and it occurred to me later when I finally decided to walk away from FDR, that he was so talking about himself. I really wish I'd saved it now.

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Phlogiston



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PostSubject: Re: Cults: the individual and the community   Mon May 26, 2008 10:33 pm

OT
reddeerrick wrote:
when I finally decided to walk away from FDR,

What ever happened to Charlie? He played bass. Did he walk away too?
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Conrad



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PostSubject: Re: Cults: the individual and the community   Mon May 26, 2008 10:39 pm

reddeerrick, were those podcasts also about the sociology and psychology of the Randians, not just about the Rand philosophy? if so, interesting and especially ironic that they are among the very first premium podcasts (what with the isolation and inner circle and what not)
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reddeerrick



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PostSubject: Re: Cults: the individual and the community   Mon May 26, 2008 10:48 pm

If I recall correctly, the podcasts did address that aspect. What I remember most is him repeating about how Rand, by sheer force of her incredible will, powered over the problem of is vs. ought, and carefully sidestepped any questioning in that area, becoming irritable and mocking of her questioners.

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