How do cults progress/regress/develop?

Conrad · Subject: How do cults progress/regress/develop? Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:39 am

question to the cult experts or informed laypersons: what is the natural progression of cults? are there regularities in development at all? how long do they last? what typically ends them?

NonEntity · Number of posts: 2598 Registration date: 2007-11-08

Kool-Aid. (Sorry I couldn't answer the first three questions.)

- NonE

wondering · Number of posts: 11 Location: Germany Registration date: 2008-10-31

I am no expert, but through my research on cults I realized that there are patterns. Although you can't and never should compare mind control groups or "cults".

1) Recruiting: there are promises that fit the new members goal in life. He is swept off his feet, like being in love. He is being put in the center of attention.
2) Loaded Language: they mostly use special phrases or words for certain issues or situations, like a cult jargon. Or they dress "funny", anything to make them stand out or "different" from the rest of the world.It makes them feel more like a group, a sense of belonging to each other. Group-Think!!!
3)Dependency: there is dependency on the leaders opinion, a loss of critical thinking. one wants to do everything right to not get humiliated in front of the group. Submission.
4) If there is an end, I think it's mostly violent, like the Kool-Aid incident. There is not even an end when the leader's dead (scientology).

I don't know for sure, like I said I am not an expert. Hope that helped a little.
I am glad you are interested in cults. Awareness is the key.
Control your own mind, or someone else will!!!!!

Zebra Foal · Number of posts: 877 Registration date: 2007-08-16

wondering wrote:

I am no expert, but through my research on cults I realized that there are patterns. Although you can't and never should compare mind control groups or "cults".

1) Recruiting: there are promises that fit the new members goal in life. He is swept off his feet, like being in love. He is being put in the center of attention.
2) Loaded Language: they mostly use special phrases or words for certain issues or situations, like a cult jargon. Or they dress "funny", anything to make them stand out or "different" from the rest of the world.It makes them feel more like a group, a sense of belonging to each other. Group-Think!!!
3)Dependency: there is dependency on the leaders opinion, a loss of critical thinking. one wants to do everything right to not get humiliated in front of the group. Submission.
4) If there is an end, I think it's mostly violent, like the Kool-Aid incident. There is not even an end when the leader's dead (scientology).

I don't know for sure, like I said I am not an expert. Hope that helped a little.
I am glad you are interested in cults. Awareness is the key.
Control your own mind, or someone else will!!!!!

probably not useful-- but cults sometimes end when the appointed "doomsday" date passes without consequence. (uh...can we get Stef to set a date?...)

when people get bored and move on... (hey, fdr-ers, isn't Stef getting just a *little* stale? C'mon, you know he is.)

when they go through a developmental stage (tho that may be delayed by being *in* the cult)

and surprisingly often when the Cult leader is found felonous on non-culty, but cult-related counts.... (Too bad Stef is not a Registered psychotherapist like his wife. Then they both could be found afoul....

Libby · Number of posts: 65 Registration date: 2008-10-14

There's not going to be a doomsday date; Molyneux has said in a few places on his forum that he does not expect to see anarchy in his lifetime. Furthermore, when or if anarchy is established, he and others have already said that it will fail to take hold permanently and will probably revert to some other form of government within a few years or so because most people lack the psychological health to follow it. Everyone will still be indoctrinated by families and states to believe in families and states, and so will create state replacements.

They would be psychologically healthy enough to be anarchists, of course, and they are doing their part to recruit people one at a time. It's just that they are so few and the world's population is so numerous. Theirs is a perpetual mission.

Dylboz · Number of posts: 2014 Registration date: 2007-09-20

wondering wrote:

I am no expert, but through my research on cults I realized that there are patterns. Although you can't and never should compare mind control groups or "cults".

I don't understand that part. Why not?

_________________
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Dylboznia

wondering · Number of posts: 11 Location: Germany Registration date: 2008-10-31

Quote:

I don't understand that part. Why not?

Because every group is lead by a different individual, with different goals, and they "recruit" different people, therefore they have different ways.
Some are religious, some are theatrical, some are whatever. Ramtha (JZ Knight), for instance, she is a 60something woman that claims a 35.000 year old Warrior (Ramtha) is speaking through her. Ramtha predicted the "end of the world" and ordered her adherents to built bunkers to survive. She has many middle age people in her group. Reportedly thousands. You can not compare her cult to that of Scientology. They are all so different; they believe in so many different things. You can not throw them in one bucket.
The patterns I was taking about were reported by psychologists that researched the characteristics of leaders of abusive groups, mind frames of mind control victims and why people join cults in general.

Dylboz · Number of posts: 2014 Registration date: 2007-09-20

wondering wrote:

Because every group is lead by a different individual, with different goals, and they "recruit" different people, therefore they have different ways.

But THAT is a comparison. And, the parallels I noticed between Stef and $cientology helped drive me away from him.

_________________
Please check out my blog!
Dylboznia

QuestEon · Number of posts: 552 Registration date: 2008-03-25

wondering wrote:

Quote:

I don't understand that part. Why not?

Because every group is lead by a different individual, with different goals, and they "recruit" different people, therefore they have different ways.
Some are religious, some are theatrical, some are whatever. Ramtha (JZ Knight), for instance, she is a 60something woman that claims a 35.000 year old Warrior (Ramtha) is speaking through her. Ramtha predicted the "end of the world" and ordered her adherents to built bunkers to survive. She has many middle age people in her group. Reportedly thousands. You can not compare her cult to that of Scientology. They are all so different; they believe in so many different things. You can not throw them in one bucket.

The patterns I was taking about were reported by psychologists that researched the characteristics of leaders of abusive groups, mind frames of mind control victims and why people join cults in general.

I think the biggest distinction one can make is between religious and therapeutic cults. When mysticism or religion gets involved, things go to a whole new level of wacky.

Scientology and FDR I think are good examples of therapeutic cults. I don't know too much about Wayne Allen Geis, but it seems like a combination of therapy and mystical crap.

I was reading Steven Hassan tonight (another expert on exit counseling) where he discussed Kurt Lewin's model of thought reform. To impose a new identity on you, cults use three steps (or stages, according to this model):

Unfreezing--the process of breaking a person down.
Changing--the indoctrination process.
Refreezing--the process of reinforcing the new identity.

He describes the process in some detail and for me it matches up to what I see people go through at FDR. He talks about his own experience with the moonies, when his own identity had been refrozen into a clone of Sun Myung Moon.

My opinion, but when I read the posts of the FDR inner circle, they seem to be clones of the Molyneux identity, with the only difference being he is supremely confident in his knowledge and they are permanently dependent upon his guidance.

He also discusses a fascinating experiment regarding the unfreezing/changing/refreezing process (I'm greatly abbreviating below):

Steven Hassan wrote:

"This aspect of cult indoctrination was scientifically demonstrated by Dr. Flavil Yeakley, a well-respected psychologist and a member of the mainline Church of Christ. He administered the Myers-Briggs Personality Type Inventory Test to 800 members of the Boston Church of Christ, a cult group lead by Kip McKean...

Yeakley did something that was very creative. He had the members fill out the test three times, answering each question (1) as they would have before they joined the group, (2) as present members of the group, and (3) projecting five years into the future.

When Yeakley correlated the data, he found the personality types varied widely in the first test, all began moving toward the same personality type in the second test, and moved almost universally toward the leader's personality type in the third test.

As a comparison group, Yeakley administered the same test to members of the Roman Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, and Presbyterian churches, along with the mainline Church of Christ.

For these respondents, there was no personality change before, during, and after they joined their churches.

So yes, absolutely, there are differences among cults, but some significant similarities as well. I can put up more detail about the unfreezing/changing/refreezing process if anyone wants.

-Q.E.

wondering · Number of posts: 11 Location: Germany Registration date: 2008-10-31

Quote:

probably not useful-- but cults sometimes end when the appointed "doomsday" date passes without consequence. (uh...can we get Stef to set a date?...)

Very often just the above mentioned situation makes followers even more dedicated. This is the "Cognitive Dissonance Theory" I was talking about in the other topic. When Doomsday is over and nothing has happend they become even more convinced then ever, after they took a dramatic public stance that resulted in public humiliation.

Thanks QuestEon for your explaination. I feel I am being misunderstood.

Quote:

Refreezing--the process of reinforcing the new identity.

cults give their followers new names or change their clothing style, they start to speak "cult jargon", or whatever else would remind him of the past. Every cult has a different "style" and a different "approach" to certain situations.

You can not put a time frame on it, or how they develop (the doctrines are being changed to outside influences): There are cults that go on forever without a leader, like Scientology, because they have Thinkers in their group, not just followers and Doers. There are cults that stop when the leader is dead, like C. Manson. Then there are leaders like Jim Jones.
Would Stefans group of adherents split if Stef would stop podcasting? Do you think if Stef would lose his voice today he would delegate one of his dedicated follower to do his "job"?

Quote:

But THAT is a comparison. And, the parallels I noticed between Stef and $cientology helped drive me away from him.

Good for you!!

QuestEon · Number of posts: 552 Registration date: 2008-03-25

wondering wrote:

There are cults that go on forever without a leader, like Scientology, because they have Thinkers in their group, not just followers and Doers. There are cults that stop when the leader is dead, like C. Manson. Then there are leaders like Jim Jones.

Would Stefans group of adherents split if Stef would stop?

That's a fascinating question. At this point in time--today--I would say that if Molyneux were to unexpectedly die, the cult would end. It is a Guru cult that is entirely dependent on his direction and energy. There is no significant administration beyond him, as I suspect it is not generating enough wealth to support others at this point. (Of course, that isn't much of a threshold, since so many of his inner circle seem to be in menial jobs or constantly changing jobs, primarily because he has separated them from family and friends and robbed them of the ability to socialize with others.)

Should that happen, the members would be lost, probably suffering the same fate as walkaways. As conspeclst26 said:

conspeclst26 wrote:

Most leave by way of walking away (known as walkaways -go figure) This is a good thing especially if they find counseling or good solid information on what had happened to them. Without this help, they may return to the group, search out another similar group, or have a very difficult time resocializing into normal society. They may become badly depressed.

However, if by our good fortune Molyneux doesn't expire prematurely, perhaps in time he could become to FDR what L. Ron Hubbard is to Scientology. His inner circle has already organized themselves to advertise FDR. Perhaps that organization could one day become more of a permanent administrative board. Once a formal organization grows up around the sacred writings of Molyneux, the cult could go then on forever.

_________________
-Q.E.

wondering · Number of posts: 11 Location: Germany Registration date: 2008-10-31

Quote:

Once a formal organization grows up around the sacred writings of Molyneux, the cult could go then on forever.

Scary...

The only thing that will prevent someone from joining an abusive group would be if Family, Schools and the government educate about cults and manipulative leaders. I wonder why they don't. Is the harm that is done by cults so minimal that none in a position to change something, are actually doing something?

There is not enough information readily available out there. If one searches the net or bookstores you can find all kind of good information. But when they do it is mostly because they are already somehow affected by it. Sad....

Conrad · Subject: Re: How do cults progress/regress/develop? Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:32 pm

wondering wrote:

Quote:

Once a formal organization grows up around the sacred writings of Molyneux, the cult could go then on forever.

Scary...

The only thing that will prevent someone from joining an abusive group would be if Family, Schools and the government educate about cults and manipulative leaders.

touchy subject.Gov't, schools and at times even the family are not very innocent either

the government does kill cult members though. See Waco.

Quote:

I wonder why they don't. Is the harm that is done by cults so minimal that none in a position to change something, are actually doing something?

perhaps people would start applying the insights to government itself, and gov't would not like that.

ExyPhylo · Number of posts: 1180 Registration date: 2007-12-12

QuestEon wrote:

His inner circle has already organized themselves to advertise FDR. Perhaps that organization could one day become more of a permanent administrative board. Once a formal organization grows up around the sacred writings of Molyneux, the cult could go then on forever.

Do you think his inner circle is growing? I see it as fading. The cast is not consistent at FDR and if you look at the board posters a year ago the faces/names have certainly changed.

Around the time when the Tshirts came out and Greg went on payroll there was talk of taking on the world and how BIG this FDR thing was going to be. That didn't happen. Greg is off payroll and Stef is essentially standing on the virtual corner with a cardboard sign, flyers and tin cup in hand.

Conrad · Subject: Re: How do cults progress/regress/develop? Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:51 am

so who wouyld you say are FDR's inner circle and how big is it. A few names I can think of:

Nathan, Charlotte, Colleen, Greg, Nash, Laura, GregM., Rodzilla, Bockman, Mr. C., Tuttle, Graeme, Neutrinoide, Candice, Nexalacer, PCRS, thirdear, ...