
Liberating Minds
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| | | I finally did it...a critique of UPB | |
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Guest Guest
 | Subject: Re: I finally did it...a critique of UPB Thu May 14, 2009 2:07 pm | |
| | Dylboz wrote: | | When Stefanologists (I like that term, thanks RoR) |
I stole it from Stewart. To my knowledge, he is the originator. Let us worship his radness. |
|  | | Dylboz

Number of posts: 2014 Registration date: 2007-09-20
 | Subject: Re: I finally did it...a critique of UPB Thu May 14, 2009 2:42 pm | |
| Stewart is a badass, which is pretty rare for a vegetarian. _________________ Please check out my blog! Dylboznia |
|  | | Stewart

Number of posts: 1186 Location: Boston, MA Registration date: 2008-04-03
 | Subject: Re: I finally did it...a critique of UPB Thu May 14, 2009 2:53 pm | |
| I'm glad I could make such an important contribution to the field  | RoR wrote: | | The other possibility, is that when Stefantologists can not refute the substance of an argument, they are conditioned to resort to petty and nonsensical semantic objections. |
I don't think this is the other possibility. I think it's the only one. It's only on obscure message boards that unsophisticated debaters can get away with halting entire conversations over the meaning of everyday words.
| RoR wrote: | Stef does this quite often (where you say something perfectly normal and reasonable, and he acts like you just took a crap in his cereal bowl). I think the tactic is simply meant to throw you off balance by virtue of it's odd and incomprehensible nature. |
Definitely. But, I wonder, is Stefan aware that he's doing this? I don't think he is. I think he's just gotten used to winning debates this way, by driving them into a ditch and then blaming his opponent for bad steering. The behavior has become reflexive for him because it's so generally effective. |
|  | | Guest Guest
 | Subject: Re: I finally did it...a critique of UPB Thu May 14, 2009 3:09 pm | |
| | Stewart wrote: | | But, I wonder, is Stefan aware that he's doing this? I don't think he is. I think he's just gotten used to winning debates this way, by driving them into a ditch and then blaming his opponent for bad steering. The behavior has become reflexive for him because it's so generally effective. |
I think it's both. Manipulation is a skill that requires practice and intention. However, the longer one does it, the more reflexive, unconscious, and unavoidable it becomes. That's how it seems to me at least. Manipulative people slowly replace their natural personality with manipulativeness. I don't think the process is reversible (or at least there is a point of no return). Stef, has clearly crossed that point.
What I find weird, is the uncanny similarities between FDR and stereotypical cults (like Scientology). For example, by assigning to people a donation status which determines the amount of information they are privy to (i.e. "advanced" podcasts), stef has made access to aspects of the FDR ideology inaccessible to the outside world. At the same time, he has managed to greatly discourage Stefantologists from intellectually engaging (debating) people outside of the cult.
It all seems a bit planned, and it matches perfectly the cult template. Is it all just a coincidence? Did it all happen by accident? Are these just the natural defenses that people like stef put up unconsciously? Or... is he just a very intelligent cult leader who set out and intentionally applied his intelligence to forming a cult. It really seems to me, as if he fully understands all the tricks and tactics involved in running a cult (just like one would run a business). I think he knows what he's doing, and I dare suppose that he's taken inspiration from folks like the Scientologists. He may very well look up to them. Who knows... |
|  | | NonEntity

Number of posts: 2598 Registration date: 2007-11-08
 | Subject: Re: I finally did it...a critique of UPB Thu May 14, 2009 3:13 pm | |
| It all depends on what the meaning of "is" is. - NonE |
|  | | Conrad

Number of posts: 5123 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands Registration date: 2007-07-22
 | Subject: Re: I finally did it...a critique of UPB Thu May 14, 2009 3:40 pm | |
| | Stewart wrote: |
| RoR wrote: | Stef does this quite often (where you say something perfectly normal and reasonable, and he acts like you just took a crap in his cereal bowl). I think the tactic is simply meant to throw you off balance by virtue of it's odd and incomprehensible nature. |
Definitely. But, I wonder, is Stefan aware that he's doing this? I don't think he is. I think he's just gotten used to winning debates this way, by driving them into a ditch and then blaming his opponent for bad steering. The behavior has become reflexive for him because it's so generally effective. |
I'm pretty sure he is aware of this. See for example the determinism debate: he planted the 'Complexity doesn't matter' bit very early on, and then used that later, through fallacious/dishonest reasoning (because the determinists accepted that complexity doesnt matter in terms of causality, not in terms of there not being a difference between people and rocks), to knock down whatever the determinists said. Also, he knows exactly when to stop a thread and say something like 'I'm gonna do a video on this' etc. I think he is very conscious of the strategies he uses and plans them. |
|  | | nelle
Number of posts: 482 Registration date: 2009-02-09
 | |  | | Conrad

Number of posts: 5123 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands Registration date: 2007-07-22
 | Subject: Re: I finally did it...a critique of UPB Thu May 14, 2009 3:45 pm | |
| | ReIgNoFrAdNeSs wrote: |
What I find weird, is the uncanny similarities between FDR and stereotypical cults (like Scientology). For example, by assigning to people a donation status which determines the amount of information they are privy to (i.e. "advanced" podcasts), stef has made access to aspects of the FDR ideology inaccessible to the outside world. At the same time, he has managed to greatly discourage Stefantologists from intellectually engaging (debating) people outside of the cult. |
donation levels being tied to extra information is not uncommon and is quite unproblematic I think. What makes it more cult-like in the case of FDR is that he markets this premium content as 'advanced knowledge', as something you have to have philosophically developed for, while the content is likely only 'advanced' in the sense that it contains more info and instructions for how the cult (Stef and the members) relate to the outside world, to debates, to opponents, how Stef experiences things etc. So the members feel privileged and flattered, and Stef has an outlet for what he really thinks (though not all the way of course)
| Quote: | | It all seems a bit planned, and it matches perfectly the cult template. Is it all just a coincidence? Did it all happen by accident? Are these just the natural defenses that people like stef put up unconsciously? Or... is he just a very intelligent cult leader who set out and intentionally applied his intelligence to forming a cult. It really seems to me, as if he fully understands all the tricks and tactics involved in running a cult (just like one would run a business). I think he knows what he's doing, and I dare suppose that he's taken inspiration from folks like the Scientologists. He may very well look up to them. Who knows... |
Stef's point about legal action against people who call FDR a cult is exactly the same as what the Scientologists do: their argument is that when people call them names associated with lawbreaking they have the right to sue. In a video I heard a Scientologist use this argument with respect to the term 'brainwashing' in exactly the same way as Stef uses it with 'cult'. I'm willing to bet some money that he directly got it from Scientology, though not a lot of money. |
|  | | Conrad

Number of posts: 5123 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands Registration date: 2007-07-22
 | Subject: Re: I finally did it...a critique of UPB Thu May 14, 2009 3:46 pm | |
| | NonEntity wrote: | It all depends on what the meaning of "is" is.
- NonE |
Not sure what 'it' refers to here.
Ha! |
|  | | vichy

Number of posts: 918 Location: Northwest US Registration date: 2008-07-26
 | Subject: Re: I finally did it...a critique of UPB Thu May 14, 2009 5:20 pm | |
| What? I asked you a question, what do my feelings have to do with the answer? Geeeee Zuss!Arguing about UPB is pointless! You must assume its true! Reminds me of Argumentation Ethics dweebs, actually. |
|  | | Guest Guest
 | Subject: Re: I finally did it...a critique of UPB Thu May 14, 2009 5:23 pm | |
| | vichy wrote: | | Reminds me of Argumentation Ethics dweebs, actually. |
And Stef claims to never have read HHH. |
|  | | reddeerrick

Number of posts: 431 Location: Red Deer, Alberta Registration date: 2007-10-17
 | Subject: Re: I finally did it...a critique of UPB Fri May 15, 2009 1:59 am | |
| | molyneux wrote: | | I have never seen a UPB discussion work out well on a Board, the concepts are too slippery for this format, and everyone always just ends up frustrated. I invite the OP to call into the Sunday show, 4pm EST, to ask these questions directly...Big Smile |
That's rich! It is exactly because the concepts are so freaking slippery that a board discussion is necessary, so that time can be taken to analyse posts and formulate coherent responses. The alternative is getting steamrolled on the air by a guy with 'slippery' theories but superior debating skills. Clearly, the discussion 'works out well' when the participant is left speechless by one of his verbal barrages. Can he be any more transparent? |
|  | | vichy

Number of posts: 918 Location: Northwest US Registration date: 2008-07-26
 | Subject: Re: I finally did it...a critique of UPB Fri May 15, 2009 2:08 am | |
| That's rich! It is exactly because the concepts are so freaking slippery that a board discussion is necessaryIt's pretty sweet how Molyneux can unintentionally parody himself like that. |
|  | | Conrad

Number of posts: 5123 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands Registration date: 2007-07-22
 | Subject: Re: I finally did it...a critique of UPB Fri May 15, 2009 12:09 pm | |
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|  | | Guest Guest
 | Subject: Re: I finally did it...a critique of UPB Fri May 15, 2009 1:39 pm | |
| Even after that whole video series, people still don't get it. People STILL think that I'm "choosing" not to debate Stef, and many people STILL don't see what the problem is with silencing critics. It's very disheartening. I'm not even trying to argue that it's "objectively morally wrong" to silence critics. I just want people to see that Stef is not what he claims to be (i.e. he has about as much to do with "truth", logic, and honesty as Scientology has to do with science).. To me, the point of philosophy is to describe and elucidate what IS. That's all I'm trying to do. Unfortunately, not that many people have a problem with what Stef does. This is the sort of thing that has always bothered me about the Libertarian/anarchist community. Intellectual honesty really isn't considered an important virtue. The end always justify the means. It's really hard to get people to abandon bullshit arguments that they feel have utility. That's what FDR is all about (bullshit arguments that supposedly have utility). So... if all one's "philosophy" is fallacious, it doesn't matter as long as it tricks people into accepting one's political arguments/position. It sickens me sometimes. Honestly, I think that intellectual dishonesty pervades ALL political philosophy. Maybe there is something fundamentally wrong and untenable about political philosophy. I'm starting to think that the whole thing is just one giant language virus. |
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