7/7/09 revision--As I mention about 8 pages into this thread, I have made continual revisions to this analysis which have never been reflected in this post. The revisions are minor, in that they do not change my points. For consistency's sake, I have deleted the original contents of this post and replaced it with a link to the most current version on my blog.

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Molyneux's original video podcast

My analysis is here.

So, has he ever done any of that shit for the very large of number of people he has hurt and offended in his search for "truth?"

And what is this bizarre mathematical equation fetish he has, the half a year for every year you were in a bad relationship to work on yourself, the 10 to 1 good times/bad times formula, etc. This pecuniary, transactional, and utterly arbitrary attempt to put any hope for patching up his relationship with his family far beyond reach (for either him or them) is absurd, and frankly juvenile. No fair! You owe me! Buy me ice cream ten times for every time you hurt my feelings!

I understand, there are toxic people with whom you must simply end your relationship because they are consistently disappointing or mean, but they would generally be the kind of people who act like Stef counsels us to behave in this podcast, not the other way around.

Really, he sounds like he's describing my ex wife:

"What did I do that was so bad? I already said I was sorry! What can I do to make it up to you?"

"You should know, I shouldn't have to tell you."

That's a quote. It was never enough, she was never happy, she held grudges FOREVER, and she was fucking miserable for it. This is no way to be.

great post with the breakdown. I couldn't get past 2 minutes.
As Don Henley sang.
There are people in your life whove come and gone
They let you down you know they hurt your pride
You better put it all behind you baby; life goes on
You keep carryin that anger; itll eat you up inside, baby
Ive been trying to get down
To the heart of the matter
But my will gets weak
And my thought seem to scatter
But I think its about forgiveness
Forgiveness
Even if, even if you dont love me
Ive been tryin to get down
To the heart of the matter
Because the flesh will get weak
And the ashes will scatter
So Im thinkin about forgiveness
Forgiveness
Even if, even if you dont love me
Forgiveness
Forgiveness - baby
Forgiveness
Forgiveness
Forgiveness
Forgiveness
Even if, you dont love me anymore
Fade
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLgUuHl2xJo

Great post with an execellently detailed analysis. Text transcribtion really helps to understand what is going. Video is just to fast paced to catch it all.

I hadn't actually sat through the entire video...I had no idea it got that bad. I really don't know what to say except that Stefan seriously needs to get himself into therapy if he said the things you quoted above, and before he causes serious and irreparable damage to anyone (else?).

Have you never delt with someone who demands forgiveness and switches the entire burden onto the person they wronged? Focusing on the new "negative action" of not granting forgiveness?

If not - lucky you.

Lizzard, I don't think anyone here is supporting or condoning that kind of behavior; what point were you trying to make?

Simply that "agressive apologies" do exist. It seemed that the entire concept was being discounted. It seems now, though, that the intent was to claim that Stefan widens the definition of this beyond its real level of existance.

On that I have no comment, but as usual I do not see it the same way as most of the posters here do.

Wow, there is sooooo much crazy in that podcast that I don't know what to say. I guess I'd go crazy too if I tried to come up with wacky pseudo scientific equations for the perfect relationships instead of simply doing what comes naturally to normal human beings.

Lizzard, I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I agree that "aggressive apologies" exist, but don't see what that has to do with a definition of the necessary conditions for forgiveness. I suppose you could be pointing out that "In many cases, aggressive apologies are offered in situations where forgiveness would not be appropriate." And I would agree with that. But I don't think it creates any problems for what has been said here.

You know how they say that forgiveness is for the forgiver and not the forgivee? Stef is the perfect example of that notion, because he has never forgiven his family, so even though he has "deFOOed," his family is front and center in his mind, every single day, and he re-lives the hurt, basks in the resentment, wallows in the self-pity and righteous indignation of every perceived affront they ever committed against him, which in turn fuels his anger and feeds his determination to do what he does, to re-enact the traumas and dramas of his childhood in the lives his hapless followers. He will not ever move on beyond this emotional vortex until such time as he really does forgive them, when he really lets go.

Stef would do well to drop this pecuniary, transactional paradigm of "forgiveness," and realize that doing so would benefit him profoundly, and he could finally put his past with his family behind him and start looking forward, instead of looking back and rehashing the past, peeling back raw scabs and nursing infantile resentment from ancient wrongs into great big grievances due to his total lack of perspective or any sense of proportion.

In short, this model of forgiveness guarantees that Stef will never be free of his family, no matter how much he denounces them. He must nurse his grievances, tally the wrongs, keep score of the "good times/bad times" index (like my evil ex did) constantly, investing tremendous emotional energy in the past, instead of the future. What good is keeping score of a match one's opponent has long since walked away from, largely because you've made it clear that you'll keep changing the rules to ensure they never win? What use is that competitive, tit-for-tat paradigm in the context of human relationships? He's tied himself to the mast of a sinking ship, wailing at the top of his lungs while his brother, mother and father have already safely departed on the life boats. Is this noble, or just plain stupid? I think the answer is obvious.

Dyl,

How well you understand him and what amazing metaphors and analogies!