A thread has popped up where Nathan and others attempt to reconcile this podcast with their feelings about FDR and/or justifying their reasons for not buying t-shirts.

eliiswyatt wrote:

I also feel that putting "I took the red pill" out there might be a premature, considering that I feel like I haven't yet reached the level of personal liberty where I can honestly say that. I'm just a couple of months into this conversation, and I haven't even entered therapy or deFOOed yet.

Anyway, besides observing that Nathan seems to be really kind of pathetic and dependent on Stef, Greg and FDR generally for any sense of self-worth or identity, the above quote caught my attention.

It is assumed immediately by newcomers that therapy AND deFOOing are necessary components of participation in the "conversation." I wonder where all the therapists are going to come from, so that everyone can enter therapy. I wonder if those therapists will all check out against Stef's rigorous standards (agreeing with him all the time) or if they'll recommend deFOOing for all their patients. While therapy may be necessary (or merely helpful), especially in times of stress and loss, or the presence of real trauma or abuse, it is not a panacea, nor is it right for everyone, all the time. And deFOOing is a drastic action that again is probably not right for many, many people who have decent relationships with their parents and siblings. It's the "nuclear option." It's like recommending fumigation everytime someone says they saw a roach in their kitchen. Overkill. A last resort he pitches as a one-size-fits-all solution to what ails you. It's a projection of Stef's feelings about his own FOO onto others, and it's dangerous and destructive too, because whatever he says, he thinks it's necessary and he clearly wont take anyone seriously who hasn't done it.

OK, look, I'm listening to Stef excoriate people for not liking his aesthetic choices with regard to the design of the apparel and the actual items themselves. It's really ironic for me, because I am a professional graphic designer, and I offered, repeatedly, to do designs for him for t-shirts, bumper stickers and book covers. He never even responded. Not a rejection, but silence. He obviously doesn't (and this is the case with so many engineers and programmers) understand or value marketing! To him, a shirt's a shirt's a shirt. One font is as good as the other, it's what it says that matters to him. The FDR logo looks like it was generated by some random internet logo generator, and says nothing about the content. The book covers are just basic generic ones.

So, here we have a failed effort at merchandizing because he doesn't regard these choices as significant or important. Ultimately, a lame t-shirt or bad logo actually reflects poorly on FDR, AND the people who wear them. That's why my business exists! We craft a total image, a presence and we communicate things that just words cannot do by themselves. I offered my services and I was just ignored, as if I had offered him a lifetime supply of hair gel. He very effectively told me that he doesn't think these things matter, yet he is not learning the lesson that marketing and design DO matter, rather he's blaming the listeners!

Stef, the t-shirts suck. They are not silk screened, they are iron-ons, like they came from a damned cereal box. I know, I used to make 'em. They look cheap, and they don't last, and at the prices they're being sold for I wouldn't buy even if I was still an avid listener. Plus, the link actually says "cloting" not clothing. It matters, the logo matters, the quality matters, the font matters.

cloting?...eewww

#923 is interesting. A listener criticizes this podcast and Stef slickly defends it.

damn, I am about midway that podcast (#923) now and I find it a very good one so far. I thought RickyCisco made excellent points and was straight but unexpectedly I could also understand Stef's position a whole lot better now and can sympathize with it both intellectually and emotionally quite a bit.

damn, I'm growing soft...

at 01:08:00 Stef does use a strawman though in an effort to distract Ricky, but Ricky after a few seconds heroically manages to wave away the srawman and get back to the point in question

from 01:19:00 after Ricky has made some good points and Stef has to begin to reply he does something very peculiar. I haven't identified it as a specific debating trick yet and if Stef is able to sort of bring it all together in the end then it may very well have been just a good complex argument rather than a distraction technique. I'd have to listen to the rest to find out what it was.
Anyway, Ricky was excellent in acknowledging what Stef said, appreciating it but pointing out that this newly mentioned 'save the world' is in conflict with Stef's earlier stuff about just changing your own personal life, no matter how Stef tries to justify their connectedness (changing yourself is a necessary but not a sufficient approach to happiness), the simple fact is that he sort of denied the connection or never talked about this next step (before he seemed to imply or even say that changing your own personal life is both a necessary and a sufficient cause of happiness)

fucking hell, I think he did it. I think Stef did manage to pull it all together and make a very good point and really create an emotional breakthrough for Ricky. I still have a somewhat nagging feeling, likely because the question around which the debate started, whether not buying T-shirts is avoiding a sort of logical positive obligation or rather, logical and necessary path to happiness, or that no such obligations can exist, that the path to happiness stops before it, and hence that the inference by Stef from people not buying the T-shirt to people not being ready for the next step is invalid, was not answered. So it may be a debating technique after all, a combination of psychologization (Ricky's past as a Jehova's Witness (as a child)) and the '2 + 2 = 4' fallacy, saying something that may be very true (that Ricky's past as a Jehova's Witness influenced his feelings about whether or not to buy the T-shirts) but irrelevant and somewhat obvious.

But even if it was that, and right now I simply don't know, it just as likely was a true excellent therapeutic insight that also shines new light on the T-shirt question in interesting and fruitful ways, it was simply brilliant.

I'm gonna have to give it a listen, but I just can't see a real decent justification for his behavior regarding t-shirt sales. And, the non-binding positive obligation is a direct repudiation of his entire philosophy. It strikes me that Stef needs money, and he needs recruits to get more donations, so he's relying on his cabal to advertise, market and promote the show and website (sorry, FTL ) so he doesn't have to go back to work.