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 Social challenges of FDR

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Danny Shahar



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PostSubject: Re: Social challenges of FDR   Fri May 30, 2008 10:04 pm

Stewart; I guess I just hope that anyone who calls himself a philosopher, and who doesn't have any vocation besides the pursuit of philosophy, would be familiar with at least a good amount of the literature relevant to his field.

NonEntity, I don't want to get "anarcho-capitalist" confused with "libertarian." Anarcho-capitalism, fully developed, involves a number of specific concepts about how a stateless society will likely function. For a paradigm example, the concept of a "protection agency" is one which is distinctively anarcho-capitalistic, and is visible in Stefan's thinking. There are ways in which a society can be voluntaristic and respectful of individuals' rights without having the features envisioned by the anarcho-capitalists. The fact that those features are present in Stefan's views suggests to me that his ideas come from past anarcho-capitalist thinkers.
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Stewart



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PostSubject: Re: Social challenges of FDR   Fri May 30, 2008 10:08 pm

NonEntity wrote:
I mean, do you have to be told that it is not nice to rape and pillage? Come-on!


Apparently you do, insofar as natural history is rife with exactly that behavior, not the least of which has been perpetrated by our own species. Whether it's nice or not, it's inarguably normal.
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Stewart



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PostSubject: Re: Social challenges of FDR   Fri May 30, 2008 10:33 pm

Danny Shahar wrote:
The fact that those features are present in Stefan's views suggests to me that his ideas come from past anarcho-capitalist thinkers.


That's a fair point. But don't you think it's pretty nasty that, in Stefan's lengthy history of podcasting and writing, he hasn't seen fit to acknowledge the progenitor of his beliefs? Rand is the only modern philosopher he ever credits with anything positive, and Stefan was a minarchist under her school of thought. Surely you're right, in that there was some other influences, but he'll happily let his followers believe that he developed FDR's weird amalgamation of philosophy out of his own natural brilliance.

The options, as I see them, are equally bad. It's possible that Stefan simply refuses to acknowledge or discuss the vast body of relevant literature that's influenced him. I don't think that would speak highly of his supposed reverence for virtue and truth, however. Alternatively--and contrary to your preferences--he doesn't know enough about the subjects to even try. He's likely had no academic instruction, beyond some intro course, and he's clearly had limited exposure to contemporary thought in his adopted fields (i.e. ethics, anarchism, political philosophy). A skim through UPB bears this out. It reads the way an essay would if, having just finished an excerpt from Kant, (and having slept through freshman composition), a student decided that he understood enough about philosophy to solve its problems in just a few weeks of conversational typing with his girlfriend as an editor.

If Stefan is a philosopher, then so is the rest of YouTube.
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Phlogiston



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PostSubject: Re: Social challenges of FDR   Fri May 30, 2008 10:52 pm

I think Stef has a masters in philosophy. Not sure what subject though. His thesis was on religious thinkers in some way if memory serves me. I think it was comparing different religous philosophies and how they hmn hmn hmn.
I read it once. I think if you bought his novel he would throw in his thesis.
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NonEntity



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PostSubject: Re: Social challenges of FDR   Fri May 30, 2008 11:23 pm

Danny Shahar wrote:

NonEntity, I don't want to get "anarcho-capitalist" confused with "libertarian." Anarcho-capitalism, fully developed, involves a number of specific concepts about how a stateless society will likely function. For a paradigm example, the concept of a "protection agency" is one which is distinctively anarcho-capitalistic, and is visible in Stefan's thinking. There are ways in which a society can be voluntaristic and respectful of individuals' rights without having the features envisioned by the anarcho-capitalists. The fact that those features are present in Stefan's views suggests to me that his ideas come from past anarcho-capitalist thinkers.


Okay. Valid point.

- NonE
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Static4367



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PostSubject: Re: Social challenges of FDR   Sat May 31, 2008 12:01 am

The comparisons between Stef and Rand are really spot on. His initial work is very general and somewhat vague. He starts with fiction and focuses on delivering an inspiring message rather than a rigorous philisophy. He then branches out into non-fiction but mostly attacks other systems of beliefs rather than building up his own. He focuses his attacks most on those groups he has the most in common with, thereby discouraging his followers from seeking other sources of information. Over time he patchworks together a comprehensive philosophy and uses ever more rigid interpretations of that philosophy to place more and more demands on his followers personal lives. This weeds out many of the free thinkers and leaves behind a close knit group that becomes an inner circle of sorts. The inner circle (and anyone desiring to join the inner circle) is encouraged to challenge all friends and family with their philosophy and if these people resist they are to be disowened for irrationality. If the followers do not do this (isolate themselves and put complete trust in the leader) they are chastized by leader and/or excommunicated.

Stef has recreated, almost exactly step by step, the path that objectivism took. That Stef acknowledges Rand as his main influence, leads me to belief that he could not be ignorant of the parallels. It almost seems to me that Stef must have actively modeled himself after Rand in order for the comparison to fit so perfectly.

I know that sounds like crazy conspiracy talk (which I despise) but all the evidence points me to that conclusion.
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PostSubject: Re: Social challenges of FDR   Sat May 31, 2008 12:07 am

Phlogiston wrote:
I think Stef has a masters in philosophy. Not sure what subject though. His thesis was on religious thinkers in some way if memory serves me. I think it was comparing different religous philosophies and how they hmn hmn hmn.
I read it once. I think if you bought his novel he would throw in his thesis.


According to his old page he has a Masters in History.

http://ca.geocities.com/s.molyneux@rogers.com/author_resume.htm
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Phlogiston



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PostSubject: Re: Social challenges of FDR   Sat May 31, 2008 12:31 am

Interesting that I was led to believe his masters was in philosophy. I don't think I created that in my head. I think I was led to believe it. Its just a memory now and can't say.
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PostSubject: Re: Social challenges of FDR   Sat May 31, 2008 12:38 am

I think he's tried to blur his credentials

"I've got a Masters in History"

"I've studied the History of Ideas"

"I've studied other peoples' philosophy"

"I've got a Master in the History of Philosophy"

"I've got a Masters in Philosophy"

"I am king shit of Fuck mountain! Fuck mountain being of course philosophy mountain!

I'm sure he's said all but the last one in order.
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Static4367



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PostSubject: Re: Social challenges of FDR   Sat May 31, 2008 12:43 am

normaltim wrote:
Phlogiston wrote:
I think Stef has a masters in philosophy. Not sure what subject though. His thesis was on religious thinkers in some way if memory serves me. I think it was comparing different religous philosophies and how they hmn hmn hmn.
I read it once. I think if you bought his novel he would throw in his thesis.


According to his old page he has a Masters in History.

http://ca.geocities.com/s.molyneux@rogers.com/author_resume.htm


I can't stop laughing...I perused Stef's old site for a few minutes and was surprised to see one of his books is sold on amazon. There is one customer review, check out who wrote it...

http://www.amazon.com/review/product/1591294630/ref=dp_db_cm_cr_acr_txt?%5Fencoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

I'll give you a hint: she has reviewed exactly one book on amazon.
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Danny Shahar



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PostSubject: Re: Social challenges of FDR   Sat May 31, 2008 12:55 am

Yea...Stefan most certainly does not have a masters in philosophy, or even a bachelor's.

I agree that his lack of citations is a problem; I won't begin to defend him on that.

Static, I hope that you're wrong about Stefan wanting to be like Rand. I can understand why he would want to be like her, in that Stefan's stated goal is to move the world away from bad ideas and towards better ones -- a task that Ayn Rand was successful in achieving in spite of all of her shortcomings as a philosopher. But Stefan is no Ayn Rand, and attempting to follow her path would only make that painfully clear. Stefan's fiction has not inspired a generation of idealistic youths, and he is not living at a time in which the ideas he's advancing are still young and developing.

When Ayn Rand wrote her most important non-fiction works, the libertarian movement was still in its infancy. The Austrian thinkers had not yet made significant forays into the world of political philosophy, and Anarchy, State, and Utopia had not yet been conceived. Rand's ideas were flawed and underdeveloped, but the reasons that they were flawed and underdeveloped were not readily available to her [from people who shared her basic views]. Stefan does not have that excuse, and if he is simply ignoring what others have said and are saying now, then that's just ridiculous. I guess I can only hope that that isn't the truth of the matter.
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Dylboz



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PostSubject: Re: Social challenges of FDR   Sat May 31, 2008 1:02 am

Danny Shahar wrote:
...if he is simply ignoring what others have said and are saying now, then that's just ridiculous. I guess I can only hope that that isn't the truth of the matter.


But it so obviously is.

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Phlogiston



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PostSubject: Re: Social challenges of FDR   Sat May 31, 2008 1:35 am

Danny Shahar wrote:
Yea...Stefan most certainly does not have a masters in philosophy, or even a bachelor's.


I actually have more respect for a bachelor's degree than a masters because you only need 2 years for a masters without having a bachelors in phil. After 4 years of study, I was annoyed with law grads in thier first term of masters study.
I figured he did theology or ethics. I was science.
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Danny Shahar



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PostSubject: Re: Social challenges of FDR   Sat May 31, 2008 1:40 am

Well if it's true that Stefan simply doesn't pay attention, then there's no excuse. I've been seriously studying philosophy for only about three years, and I think I've managed a decent enough grasp on things to be able to speak confidently on most subjects within the area of libertarian political philosophy. I certainly haven't read everything, and I probably never will. But I'm at least familiar with what many of the important figures have had to say. If I've been able to manage that in three years while taking a full college course load (admittedly, probably a third of my credits have been in areas that have strengthened my understanding of libertarian thought) and maintaining an active social life, then it's simply inexcusable that Stefan would not take it upon himself to do the same.

That's especially true in light of all the fantastic opportunities there are every summer to attend seminars across the country to learn about libertarian thought. I know I can't wait for the opportunity to attend the seminars at FEE this summer during my internship, and I fully expect to come out of the experience with a set of ideas that I had never even considered before. The sort of incestuousness of thought that comes with isolating oneself to one's own opinions is completely indefensible in today's learning environment. If Stefan doesn't see that, then that's his loss.

On the issue of graduate study in philosophy, I'd point out that most of the better programs don't offer a terminal masters degree; it's a pretty PhD-driven discipline. But I don't know that a masters would involve less study than an undergraduate degree; there aren't any general education requirements for masters students, and graduate-level courses are typically more difficult than undergraduate courses. I don't think I'd take any masters philosophy student lightly, even if she hadn't majored in philosophy as an undergrad.
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Static4367



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PostSubject: Re: Social challenges of FDR   Sat May 31, 2008 2:05 am

Danny Shahar wrote:


Static, I hope that you're wrong about Stefan wanting to be like Rand. I can understand why he would want to be like her, in that Stefan's stated goal is to move the world away from bad ideas and towards better ones -- a task that Ayn Rand was successful in achieving in spite of all of her shortcomings as a philosopher. But Stefan is no Ayn Rand, and attempting to follow her path would only make that painfully clear. Stefan's fiction has not inspired a generation of idealistic youths, and he is not living at a time in which the ideas he's advancing are still young and developing.

When Ayn Rand wrote her most important non-fiction works, the libertarian movement was still in its infancy. The Austrian thinkers had not yet made significant forays into the world of political philosophy, and Anarchy, State, and Utopia had not yet been conceived. Rand's ideas were flawed and underdeveloped, but the reasons that they were flawed and underdeveloped were not readily available to her [from people who shared her basic views]. Stefan does not have that excuse, and if he is simply ignoring what others have said and are saying now, then that's just ridiculous. I guess I can only hope that that isn't the truth of the matter.


I don't mean to imply in any way that Stef's contribution is comparable to that of Rand. I am only pointing out all the similarities along the road to creation of a cult. The way in which he has structured the introduction of various ideas to his "flock" and the way he comports himself with them is eerily similar to objectivism/rand.
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