Social challenges of FDR

Deep Purple · Number of posts: 127 Registration date: 2008-05-10

From what I understand, Stef's degree is an M.A. through the history department. His studies were in the history of philosophy, with a thesis analyzing themes in Western philosophy. I don't think it's misleading of him to say that he has a masters in the history of philosophy. You could say that his study of the greats of Western thought did him little good, but the degree is his.

Danny Shahar · Number of posts: 948 Registration date: 2007-12-30

I'm not sure if that was aimed at me, but I'm not suggesting that Stefan said anything misleading at all. I'm only pointing out that Stefan is clearly not trained as an analytical philosopher. That doesn't call into question the training that he does have. I'm sure he has a very sound grasp on the history of philosophy; far better than my own, to be sure. And that makes his approach even more puzzling: why would someone who studies the development of ideas in philosophy over time write a book without any citations, and without any discussion of the evolution of libertarian thought and how his theory responded to historical objections to earlier theories?

Deep Purple · Number of posts: 127 Registration date: 2008-05-10

Oh, that wasn't directed at you, Danny. I noticed some people (normaltim in particular) were trying to say Stef was misleading people by his credentials. OTOH, I thought you were clear in saying that Stef's training didn't do him much good, or at least he wasn't putting it to explicit use in his writings and podcasts. Perhaps the 10th Anniversary edition of UPB will have citations? (Isn't that what you give someone for your tenth anniversary: citations? Wink

).

Conrad · Subject: Re: Social challenges of FDR Sat May 31, 2008 7:53 am

Danny Shahar wrote:

I'm not sure if that was aimed at me, but I'm not suggesting that Stefan said anything misleading at all. I'm only pointing out that Stefan is clearly not trained as an analytical philosopher. That doesn't call into question the training that he does have. I'm sure he has a very sound grasp on the history of philosophy;

I don't understand this, what makes you sure of this?

Quote:

far better than my own, to be sure. And that makes his approach even more puzzling: why would someone who studies the development of ideas in philosophy over time write a book without any citations, and without any discussion of the evolution of libertarian thought and how his theory responded to historical objections to earlier theories?

Wittgenstein in TLP and PI hardly included any references though

Guest

Quote:

Wittgenstein in TLP and PI hardly included any references though

Well, its perfectly alright when God does it.
Wink

Stewart · Subject: Re: Social challenges of FDR Sat May 31, 2008 10:01 am

Danny wrote:

Why would someone who studies the development of ideas in philosophy over time write a book without any citations, and without any discussion of the evolution of libertarian thought and how his theory responded to historical objections to earlier theories?

I can't say with any certainty what works Stefan hasn't read, but here is his list of suggested reading:

Stefan Molyneux wrote:

Plato
Aristotle
Aquinas
Francis Bacon
Locke
Descartes
Martin Luther
Hobbes
Schopenhaur
Adam Smith
Edmund Burke
JS Mill
Rousseau
Pascal
Voltaire
David Hume
Nieztsche
Rand
Hayek
Sartre

It's a pretty telling list. They're all dead, and only three of them ever saw the twentieth century. Make of their contents what you will.

Danny wrote:

I'm not suggesting that Stefan said anything misleading at all.

I think it's true that he does, however. When he says that he has a master's degree, he rarely says what it's actually in. I think it's fair to say that many people on the FDR boards believe Stefan is a trained philosopher, that he knows they believe this, and that he is happy to not correct the confusion. There are other examples of this. Recently, as someone on this board pointed out, someone at FDR said that Christina had a doctorate in psychology. Stefan, who was involved in the conversation, did not point out that this isn't true. He seems willing to let people believe that he and his wife have more academic credentials than they do.

Guest

Deep Purple wrote:

From what I understand, Stef's degree is an M.A. through the history department. His studies were in the history of philosophy, with a thesis analyzing themes in Western philosophy. I don't think it's misleading of him to say that he has a masters in the history of philosophy. You could say that his study of the greats of Western thought did him little good, but the degree is his.

Well, it seems misleading for him to make the jump to Masters in Philosophy if he really led Phlogiston to believe he did. Also, it seems to be kind of misleading for Stef to claim expertise in a subject he knows so little about.

Conrad · Subject: Re: Social challenges of FDR Sat May 31, 2008 10:14 am

Stewart wrote:

I think it's true that he does, however. When he says that he has a master's degree, he rarely says what it's actually in. I think it's fair to say that many people on the FDR boards believe Stefan is a trained philosopher, that he knows they believe this, and that he is happy to not correct the confusion. There are other examples of this. Recently, as someone on this board pointed out, someone at FDR said that Christina had a doctorate in psychology. Stefan, who was involved in the conversation, did not point out that this isn't true. He seems willing to let people believe that he and his wife have more academic credentials than they do.

I'd be very interested in reading his master's thesis, or at least in having a look at its contents.

about Christina's credentials: Stef has actively created the illusion that Christina has more diploma's than she does and he has consciously (when confronted with questions about it) resisted clarifying things, instead trying to divert attention. Also, when confronted with the question why Christina on the website of her practice talks about 'we' rather than 'I' if there is only one person working there he has tried to divert attention, never just clarified the situation. I mean, that is telling.

it's not so much that it is like super-evil to have misrepresented Christina's credentials in that way so what does he have to lose by clarifying things? but instead he actively resists clarification and obfuscates and misrepresents even more. that makes it more blame-worthy and suspect

Deep Purple · Number of posts: 127 Registration date: 2008-05-10

Conrad - I think the "we" thing on Christina's website was anticipating more therapists joining her practice, which has, if I remember correctly, occurred.

I also got the impression that Christina and Stef (more the former, less the latter) were open about Christina's credentials: registered therapist, with a masters' level degree, with her own practice, and qualified to supervise candidates for licensure. It wouldn't surprise me if Stef wasn't proactive about correcting people's misunderstanding in that area, but I know he's stated several times Christina's credentials.

Conrad · Subject: Re: Social challenges of FDR Sat May 31, 2008 11:20 am

Deep Purple wrote:

Conrad - I think the "we" thing on Christina's website was anticipating more therapists joining her practice, which has, if I remember correctly, occurred.

I also got the impression that Christina and Stef (more the former, less the latter) were open about Christina's credentials: registered therapist, with a masters' level degree, with her own practice, and qualified to supervise candidates for licensure. It wouldn't surprise me if Stef wasn't proactive about correcting people's misunderstanding in that area, but I know he's stated several times Christina's credentials.

I have no wish to be unfair to Christina; on the other hand...

For a therapist to represent herself as "director" of a "clinic" when she is a sole practitioner seems to me spurious, duplicitous and unethical. Anybody can "anticipate" anything and for a therapist to misrepresent in this way is, frankly, scary.

Below is her website bumpf, unedited. Note the typo --College of Pschologist--which is surprisingly similar to her misrepresentation of her "one" as many.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I say she does not have a Master's degree. She has a BA and a diploma (the dip is from the Inst of Child Study, which is not a clinical setting at all, but rather a "laboratory school" for children from six to eleven.) She is not supervising PhD and MA students, as Stef led people to believe. I would wager that if there are any students at all, they already have credentials surpassing hers and are getting some sort of interaction re a therpeutic milieu.

If anybody can *prove* this wrong, I'll be happy to retract and pay up. As I said, I do not like to be scared, and Stef's and Christina's enjoyment of the benefits of misleading people scares me.

Clinical Director

Christina Papadopoulos is a registered member of the College of Psychologist of Ontario, with over ten years of clinical experience. She holds an honours undergraduate degree in psychology from McMaster University, and completed her graduate studies at the University of Toronto, Institute of Child Study, in psychological assessment and counselling. She has worked in both hospital and private practice settings, treating adults, adolescents and children with a wide variety of psychological and emotional problems.

Zebra Foal · Number of posts: 877 Registration date: 2007-08-16

oops! The above post is mine and mine alone.

Zebra Foal · Number of posts: 877 Registration date: 2007-08-16

damn, this is Conrad writing below, not Zebra

Deep Purple wrote:

Conrad - I think the "we" thing on Christina's website was anticipating more therapists joining her practice, which has, if I remember correctly, occurred.

yeah re the first part, no re the second part. I mean, the first part is not a major moral issue or anything (on the other hand: it would not be a lot of work to change 'I' into 'we' on the website the moment more practicioners join the clinic) , but Stef's dancing around the question of how many practicioners there are is suspect.

At some point Stef when asked about it said that Christina was now supervising one or two PhD candidates and an MA candidate (if i remember correctly), but I have serious doubts about the meaning of 'supervise' here. I think his intention in using that word (could actually have been a different word with roughly the same meaning) was to not technically be a lie while misrepresenting the situation enough so that he could sort of get away with the idea that Christina has more people working with/'under' her.

having students experience the therapeutic milieu by sitting in on sessions for example (like for example my best friend who is in med school did for I think a month in a GP's office) is not the same as having more practicioners there. It would for example not give clients the option of choosing anybody other than Christina

That said, I can't prove this other than saying that Stef has to my knowledge never talked about (other than what I refer to above) other practicioners, and that Christina works from their home (which could get cramped if there are other practicioners)

So to be sure, I retract my strong statement that he has misled people and now just say that I suspect he has

Quote:

I also got the impression that Christina and Stef (more the former, less the latter) were open about Christina's credentials: registered therapist, with a masters' level degree, with her own practice, and qualified to supervise candidates for licensure. It wouldn't surprise me if Stef wasn't proactive about correcting people's misunderstanding in that area, but I know he's stated several times Christina's credentials.

I think Christina herself has never misled anybody about her credentials, but Stef has (by refering to her as a 'psychologist' for example, which she is not (and there is quite the difference in education requirements for the title 'psychologist') to be sure, at other times he has used the proper term 'psychological associate'

NonEntity · Number of posts: 2594 Registration date: 2007-11-08

Conbra, or Zerad... get it together, huh? lol!

- NonE

Kato · Number of posts: 2 Registration date: 2008-04-25

Hi all,

I've been lurking for a while. I enjoy, and agree with, a lot of the FDR discussion on this forum.

re: this

Quote:

Clinical Director

Christina Papadopoulos is a registered member of the College of Psychologist of Ontario, with over ten years of clinical experience. She holds an honours undergraduate degree in psychology from McMaster University, and completed her graduate studies at the University of Toronto, Institute of Child Study, in psychological assessment and counselling. She has worked in both hospital and private practice settings, treating adults, adolescents and children with a wide variety of psychological and emotional problems.

I listened to a podcast in the last week in which Stef said Christina was 26 years old. This was a podcast from March 2006. So either she's claiming to have been practicing in a clinic when she was a teenager, or Stef was joking about her age (but if the latter, the joke went right over my head).

Conrad · Subject: Re: Social challenges of FDR Sat May 31, 2008 7:53 pm

hey Kato and welcome to LM.

about C.'s age: I reckon there was a misunderstanding (e.g. a joke as you say) re the remark in that podcast (don't know which one it is btw) because C. is about Stef's age and I cannot imagine his lying about that now.