
Liberating Minds
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Conrad

Number of posts: 5114 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands Registration date: 2007-07-22
 | Subject: Social challenges of FDR Tue May 27, 2008 11:09 pm | |
| haven't listened to this one since it is premium, but i think i can summarize it pretty aptly nevertheless: there have been recent tensions in the FDR community with people asking questions or even criticising some of Stef's actions, esp. in the Tyler thread. Also, Stef's new book did not have the impact he thought it deserved to have. To explain both situations Stef first dismisses the ideas that a) Stef was wrong or inconsistent or used double standards in his actions, and b) that the ideas in his book were not that original or monumental as he thinks they are Instead, some members of the community have been feeling uneasy and falsely questioning or criticising Stef, and not wanting to see the monumental nature of the new book, because they know that what Stef says in both cases is true and that it should have important implications for their personal lives and their relations with family and friends, and they are afraid to accept and put into practice these implications. to deal with their anxiety they take it out on Stef instead and/or are unable/unwilling to appreciate the book to the full extent that it should be praised Done. oh, and if there were any truly hard-core FDR'ers (or newbies who wanna belong) in this conversation then after Stef has explained the above (and after they may have struggled and asked questions for some part of the conversation) will be very willing or eager even to subject themselves (and others) to be psychologized so as to find the real causes/reasons for their clearly irrational behavior (questioning Stef's actions or work) |
|  | | Stewart

Number of posts: 1182 Location: Boston, MA Registration date: 2008-04-03
 | Subject: Re: Social challenges of FDR Tue May 27, 2008 11:49 pm | |
| You can tell all that just from the title? [Edit: Sorry, I didn't see the additional description that he provided...]
Last edited by Stewart on Tue May 27, 2008 11:50 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : me can'ts read) |
|  | | Deep Purple
Number of posts: 127 Registration date: 2008-05-10
 | Subject: Re: Social challenges of FDR Tue May 27, 2008 11:50 pm | |
| This pattern of chiding, assuming motives, and calls for introspection and apology happens every time Stef does something "monumental." It happened after each of the books, after the premiere of the FDR gear, and after the release of the Mythology series (in the 740s, about a year ago). Those are the ones just off the top of my head. |
|  | | Conrad

Number of posts: 5114 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands Registration date: 2007-07-22
 | Subject: Re: Social challenges of FDR Wed May 28, 2008 12:39 am | |
| good call, although 'On Truth' may have been an exception (can't really remember though), but yeah the FDR gear, mythology series and I think also the intro to philosophy series. This must be tough for Stefan tough, being perpeptually disappointed with the failure of those closest to him (and also of the wider libertarian community (he has talked about how his LRC article 'proving libertarian morality' didnt give him the success and speaking opportunities etc. that he thought it would give him)) to see those concrete things he created as being as monumental as he sees them, while at the same time not wanting empty praise. So he must think of ways to get around this split, which he does by coming up with these psychological explanations. |
|  | | Nielsio

Number of posts: 708 Location: Amsterdam Registration date: 2007-08-19
 | Subject: Re: Social challenges of FDR Wed May 28, 2008 4:29 am | |
| I, for one, welcome our new all-loving overlord. |
|  | | Deep Purple
Number of posts: 127 Registration date: 2008-05-10
 | Subject: Re: Social challenges of FDR Wed May 28, 2008 8:04 am | |
| You're probably right about On Truth. It was received well. On the other hand, it was blamed for Niels' actions that led to a banning. Perhaps part of it stems from his openly-stated starting principle of "I'm always right"? He doesn't stick with that when it comes to little facts ("Oops, you're right, I forgot to carry the one, but the math doesn't matter [cheesy grin]"), but for anything he's invested a lot of intellectual effort into, he holds steadfast to that principle. That principle, and the presence of people willing to accept that principle as well, allows him to transform his intellectual failures into others' emotional failures. What makes this easier is that Stef earned a lot of intellectual credibility, and that the listeners he speaks with come to FDR to discuss their own emotional failures. Those who challenge Stef and are unwilling to discuss their emotional failures don't stay long. |
|  | | Conrad

Number of posts: 5114 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands Registration date: 2007-07-22
 | Subject: Re: Social challenges of FDR Wed May 28, 2008 10:03 pm | |
| | Deep Purple wrote: | | You're probably right about On Truth. It was received well. On the other hand, it was blamed for Niels' actions that led to a banning. |
i thought Niels's behavior was blamed by Stef on the fact that in that time Stef went full-time, had spent considerable money on advertising to lure new people to the site, and Niels's supposed motivation for behaving the way he did was to subvert Stef's efforts to make the FDr conversation more public. Niels in Stef's eyes wanted the FDR board to look more like other forums (with bad behavior) than the ideal of rational and open philosophical discussion, the oasis of rationality that Stef envisioned.
not sure if that coincided with the publication of "On Truth". could be though
| Quote: | | Perhaps part of it stems from his openly-stated starting principle of "I'm always right"? He doesn't stick with that when it comes to little facts ("Oops, you're right, I forgot to carry the one, but the math doesn't matter [cheesy grin]") |
I hate those grins so much I want to kidnap them, transport them to a North Korean prison camp and let the guards have their way with them
| Quote: | | , but for anything he's invested a lot of intellectual effort into, he holds steadfast to that principle. |
oh yeah, he never ever gives in an inch. The only thing I can think of was to change 'prefered' to 'preferable' (re UPB) but even that he sort of tried to mock later. it's not just that he doesn't give in, it's that he now simply does not allow for true discussion anymore
| Quote: | | That principle, and the presence of people willing to accept that principle as well, allows him to transform his intellectual failures into others' emotional failures. |
well phrased!
| Quote: | | What makes this easier is that Stef earned a lot of intellectual credibility, and that the listeners he speaks with come to FDR to discuss their own emotional failures. Those who challenge Stef and are unwilling to discuss their emotional failures don't stay long. |
and the thing is, everybody has some emotional failures (in facr, in Stef's eyes, when you have not completely separated yourself (I don't mean co-workers, store clerks, plumbers and the like) from statists, religous people and non-philosophivcally committed friends, it means that you have emotional issues. So anybody who has not gone down the complete FDR route basically cannot challenge Stef cuz he will blame it on their not having gone that route. And the people who did go that route are now too emotionally dependent on Stef and FDR to dare (or even be able) to challenge him.
He cannot lose |
|  | | Alex

Number of posts: 785 Age: 39 Location: Baltimore, MD, USA Registration date: 2007-12-25
 | Subject: Re: Social challenges of FDR Wed May 28, 2008 10:50 pm | |
| | Conrad wrote: | | This must be tough for Stefan tough, being perpeptually disappointed with the failure of those closest to him (and also of the wider libertarian community (he has talked about how his LRC article 'proving libertarian morality' didnt give him the success and speaking opportunities etc. that he thought it would give him)) to see those concrete things he created as being as monumental as he sees them, while at the same time not wanting empty praise. |
I have not particularly witnessed this, but I do think Stef has failed to understand the modus operandi of people interacting on the internet. The failure would happen differently if we all had met by chance, face to face, but it would still be a failure. The interwebs' dynamic somewhat support Stef's fantasy camp when it would have fallen flat sooner in the 'real world', but in some situations the opposite is true.
For instance, if someone with whom you'd chatted for 10-50 hours with in real life happened to publish a book on the subject of your discourse, you'd have a hard time blowing them off. On the internet, your agenda might have been the conversation, and the book seems disingenuine, or etc..
Or, conversely, if you met some loony who 'held forth' for 40-60 minutes at a time and showed up every day to lecture random strangers, you'd probably tell them to shove off earlier than we do on the net.
So it works both ways.
Its just that Stef seems to miss this, which supports the idea that he's attached to some fantasy of how people and the world work; A fantasy that is quite disjointed from the reality of the situation. He's still a bit unaware of what brings people to FDR. And frankly, I think most of us are as well. _________________ If you lend someone $20 and never see that person again, it was probably worth it.
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|  | | Conrad

Number of posts: 5114 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands Registration date: 2007-07-22
 | Subject: Re: Social challenges of FDR Thu May 29, 2008 11:44 am | |
| vindi-fucking-cationthe good thing is that donations are down |
|  | | Stewart

Number of posts: 1182 Location: Boston, MA Registration date: 2008-04-03
 | Subject: Re: Social challenges of FDR Thu May 29, 2008 4:16 pm | |
| I don't normally download his podcasts, but I was curious to what you were referring. It was funny and frustrating to listen to. "Why are people getting so testy with me and FDR? I guess it must be because I'm so powerful and true that their false selves can't handle it... Not my problem!" |
|  | | Stewart

Number of posts: 1182 Location: Boston, MA Registration date: 2008-04-03
 | Subject: Re: Social challenges of FDR Thu May 29, 2008 4:40 pm | |
| I can't get over this podcast! He talks for a hour, going on and on about all the reasons why people would respond badly to his books and podcasts. And in that time, not once does he mention the possibility that his philosophy is flawed, or that his methods are manipulative. The whole podcast is full of self-aggrandizement. He really can't help but say how amazing, ground-breaking, life-changing, and obviously-true his arguments are. |
|  | | NonEntity

Number of posts: 2594 Registration date: 2007-11-08
 | Subject: Re: Social challenges of FDR Thu May 29, 2008 5:32 pm | |
| Or even that maybe his philosophy is spot on, but he is such a hateful, lying, abusive hypocrite that no one is willing to put up with his crap to get the wisdom...  - NonE |
|  | | Conrad

Number of posts: 5114 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands Registration date: 2007-07-22
 | Subject: Re: Social challenges of FDR Thu May 29, 2008 6:19 pm | |
| | Stewart wrote: | | I can't get over this podcast! He talks for a hour, going on and on about all the reasons why people would respond badly to his books and podcasts. And in that time, not once does he mention the possibility that his philosophy is flawed, or that his methods are manipulative. The whole podcast is full of self-aggrandizement. He really can't help but say how amazing, ground-breaking, life-changing, and obviously-true his arguments are. |
he mentioned the possiblity once, near the end |
|  | | Stewart

Number of posts: 1182 Location: Boston, MA Registration date: 2008-04-03
 | Subject: Re: Social challenges of FDR Thu May 29, 2008 7:11 pm | |
| So he did. You're right, Conrad. I think the point remains, though. It's 60 minutes of how amazing FDR is, how amazing his books are, and how everyone who doesn't agree with them is just afraid of the truth that they see, but aren't willing to embrace. It's rubbish. |
|  | | Deep Purple
Number of posts: 127 Registration date: 2008-05-10
 | Subject: Re: Social challenges of FDR Thu May 29, 2008 8:18 pm | |
| I had a similar reaction when I started my first business: "I have a great product, but everyone's too stupid to know it!" Oddly enough, that business failed. Maybe I should have browbeat my potential clients more. |
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