The best solution for FDR

Conrad · Subject: The best solution for FDR Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:56 pm

Stefan and other FDR'ers are convinced that there is nothing problematic going on at FDR and that FDR definitely is not a cult. Articles to the contrary are slanderous and unjust.

Okay, how do we test this thesis?

the best way in my opinion is for FDR to contact a certified cult expert and ask him to have a look at FDR, talk to members (and possibly former members and critics) and let him report his findings.

if he says that FDR cannot properly be called a cult or cult-like, then that is the best possible defense for FDR. I would even publicly apologize for using the term 'cult' if that was the outcome.

Should he say that there are problematic aspects to FDR re cult-aspects, then FDR'ers can take that knowledge and use it to improve the community because they understandably don't want to be a cult or cult-like.

Same thing with having a psychologist have a listen to some of the controversial podcasts such as the one with Tom. if a psychologist says that there is nothing problematic about them, then that is an excellent argument that FDR can use in response to critics.

I don't expect Stefan or other FDR'ers to do this, but if they think that there are no problematic aspects to FDR re cult-aspects or undue influence, this would be their best possible defense.

I expect they will respond indignantly, claiming the proposition itself is a deep insult, or say that such a cult expert is likely corrupt or just wouldn't understand FDR or something, or that the burden of proof is not on them. Any ad hoc reason will do for them. But it remains the case that if they are sincerely convinced about the healthy state of FDR then asking a cult expert and a psychologist to have a look would be their best possible defense.

Stewart · Subject: Re: The best solution for FDR Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:14 pm

Conrad wrote:

Same thing with having a psychologist have a listen to some of the controversial podcasts such as the one with Tom. if a psychologist says that there is nothing problematic about them, then that is an excellent argument that FDR can use in response to critics.

I would expect that they think a psychologist already has done this.

Conrad · Subject: Re: The best solution for FDR Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:21 pm

yeah, but I think Stef is also trying to distance Christina from FDR so as not to get her in trouble with her peers, so they can't really use her authority as a defense.

Danny Shahar · Number of posts: 948 Registration date: 2007-12-30

Do you have in mind Stefan's wife's opinion? Surely even the best psychologist wouldn't be a credible source of an independent and disinterested opinion on her husband's work. Is there someone else you're referring to?

Stewart · Subject: Re: The best solution for FDR Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:52 pm

No, that's who I was referring to. Certainly I don't think she's a credible source, but she has been regularly paraded out on FDR, by participants and by Molyneux himself, as being evidence that what they're doing is healthy and sound.

Danny Shahar · Number of posts: 948 Registration date: 2007-12-30

Well I think that to the extent that she's actually giving disinterested, professional advice, that's completely fine. But clearly there are limits to what she can say as a disinterested professional, and this certainly doesn't seem to be one of them. I don't think we disagree, though; just sayin'.

Deep Purple · Number of posts: 127 Registration date: 2008-05-10

FDR assumes all of society is corrupt and in need of Stef's teachings. Any cult expert or psychologist who opposes FDR is, by definition, corrupt. When you set yourself against society, any criticism is easily deflected.

Zay · Number of posts: 1 Registration date: 2009-01-12

FDR is such a small demographic that I really have to question why this is even necessary? The posters there represent less than 1/4 of 1% of the world, and none of them seem to have any political significance.

But alas, if it is such an important objective, why not fund raise the money here? Find out how much a cult expert charges per hour of research, and determine a fair number of hours necessary.

Conrad · Subject: Re: The best solution for FDR Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:03 pm

One problem is that FDR would not accept the findings of the expert if (s)he is financed by people on LM.

As to the necessity: it is not at all necessary in terms of impact on the world cuz it won't make a difference, but it might be helpful for FDR'ers and Stef if they are sincere in their motives, and since Stef does have enormous potential (and has done a lot of very good and helpful things) it might be worthwhile to find a way to get rid of the barriers to reaching that potential

also, I forgot to tip my hat to Danny re the topic of this thread. couple of days ago i noticed some posts that he had made earlier basically saying the same thing, so I think I got the topic for the thread from him.

Ouder · Number of posts: 17 Registration date: 2008-07-24

Conrad wrote:

Same thing with having a psychologist have a listen to some of the controversial podcasts such as the one with Tom. if a psychologist says that there is nothing problematic about them, then that is an excellent argument that FDR can use in response to critics.

I have a follow-up to this that you may find interesting, but it's still frustrating.

I recently discovered that I have a friend who is friends with the Director of Behavioral Sciences at a local hospital system and teaches psychology at the medical center of a university here. He also sits on the board of our state psychology association. So it would be hard to fault his credentials!

As someone who teaches psychologists, one of his jobs is to listen to their counseling sessions and help them see when they've inadvertently asked a "closed" question or pushed an assumption onto a patient. It takes a lot of work for psychologists to learn how to let patients find their own way.

As a favor to me, he listened to one of Stef's "counseling" sessions with my child. I thought he would only have time for a snippet but I was grateful to learn he listened to the entire thing.

About Stef's "expertise" in psychology, he said it was a clear example of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. Before someone begins practicing in the field, regardless of the specialty, they've typically had a complete survey of current knowledge. Without that, you're more likely to make boneheaded mistakes.

Stef has channel knowledge only of the areas that interest him, making him a candidate for such errors. To use the old adage, his only tool is a hammer so he sees every problem as a nail.

That's nothing in comparison to the bigger problem. He said it was clear that Stef was planting and leading my child every step of the way. To give an example of how profoundly wrong Stef is, he said that with his own students, he listens for inadvertent questions like "No physical problems since last time, right?" That's a closed question that doesn't give the patient a proper way to respond.

He said Stef was off the map. Not only was he planting and suggesting from the outset, it was clear that he had a conclusion and destination in mind. He immediately picked up on that "right, right?" pattern of Stef's and how he uses it to push people where he wants them to go. He said my child is completely unaware of the degree of his manipulation. He said my child was in real trouble.

Unfortunately, my consultant reminded me he's a psychology expert, not a cult expert, and couldn't advise me what to do about it.

I asked him about Stef as a narcissist. He said he couldn't diagnose him solely on the basis of that .mp3, but everything he heard certainly fit.

He talked to me for about 30 minutes about how narcissists operate and the risks my child is facing under his influence.

Like I said, it's interesting but still frustrating. I have an unimpeachable expert in psychology who has proven to me that some sick guy is manipulating my child. I just don't know what to do about it.

Conrad · Subject: Re: The best solution for FDR Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:17 pm

thanks for that Ouder. Very interesting, esp re planting.

I think there now have been at least 4 psychologists/therapists/psychiatrists who have listened to one or more of Stef's listener conversations and they all find them deeply problematic.

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nelle · Number of posts: 482 Registration date: 2009-02-09

My therapist has looked into fdr, and has defined Stef and several followers as "deeply disturbed".

nelle · Number of posts: 482 Registration date: 2009-02-09

I think that she was putting it kindly.

Patience · Subject: Re: The best solution for FDR Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:30 pm

Conrad wrote:

thanks for that Ouder. Very interesting, esp re planting.

I think there now have been at least 4 psychologists/therapists/psychiatrists who have listened to one or more of Stef's listener conversations and they all find them deeply problematic.

I wonder if they would be willing to write up their findings or make their views known in some other way.

NonEntity · Number of posts: 2598 Registration date: 2007-11-08

A thought:

It has been suggested above that a "qualified" person in the field could make a valid assessment of Stef's work. It appears that many agree with this idea.

I would beg you to consider that most of the manipulation of the world that has brought us to the current economic collapse has been vetted by "qualified" economists.

I'm just sayin'...

Just because a large number of people, or certain "special" people, consider something to be so - does not necessarily make it so.

- NonE