Mike,

Thanks.

You are right that Dyl gave some explanations of why he believes Building 7 came down.

I guess I was not clear. I was not challenging that particular assertion of his. I was commenting on the fact that there are huge quantities of conflicting data surrounding many events that occurred on that day. I disagree with his specific ideas on this issue, but even if he is right, that is simply one tiny spec in a sea of physically impossible events that have been proclaimed to have occurred.

But the real issue here is this, I specifically pointed out that I didn't care about the issue, that what I found of interest is what it revealed to me regarding human beliefs and actions. Here are my actual words:

Quote:

I wrote an article a while back about 9/11 and the fact that it had to be an inside job, and that what was really scary to me was the fact, not that it was an inside job, but what the resultant actions revealed about humans, or citizens, or at least a large number of people living in this country. And that is this: (please read the article, if you want my thinking in more depth) The idea that people could be so evil is simply unacceptable, and people will DO ANYTHING rather than admit to themselves that someone would be capable of planning the destruction of 3,000 of their "fellow citizens" for their own strategic gains. In other words, people will willingly believe what they know, on some level, to be false, rather than to admit to themselves that the world is not as they believe (want) it to be. We will willing lie to ourselves.

I don't care to discuss 9/11 and all Dyl has done is go jump in my shit about it. I don't know who did it. I DO know that a lot of people are lying to prevent open inquiry into the event. Even if it WAS turbans and box cutters, that does not change the fact that there is a vast conspiracy to prevent access to the data. Why?

Perhaps I should have used the situation where the government burned all of those men, women and children to death in Waco and then destroyed all of the evidence instead of 9/11. The point is the same. The government made up viscious lie after viscious lie and behaved in such an outrageous manner that it totally boggles the mind that anyone could buy the load of crap they were selling. Yet still today you will find most people believe that what the government did was right and proper and the only way to deal with that HORRIBLE TERRIBLE SCARY FRIGHTENING THREATENING situation. It is better to burn people alive and bulldoze the ground rather than to allow for open dialog.

The specific details don't matter. It is the way the human mind works that is of interest to me.

- NonE

Ah, OK. Even though you said you didn't care who did 9/11 (I caught that the first time you wrote it), I didn't think that you really meant it because you used 9/11 examples - both stating your own and denying Dyl's.

I think it would have been a good idea to use Waco as another example (well, it would have helped me understand your position better). But in that case, you might have to be care (in general) that people don't misclassify you as a conspiracy theorist, as opposed to a "Truther" for only giving examples of 9/11.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. What a world!

Kennedy assassination, King assassination, Kennedy assassination, Pearl Harbor, Waco, Ruby Ridge, 9/11, the London tubes, the cholesterol scare, HIV/AIDS, CO2 and Global warming, the commies are coming the commies are coming, the war on drugs... the list is endless.

All of these are manifestations of the same stuff. Manipulations of public terror for political* gain.

And they all work because of this thing that I think I'm beginning to grasp wherein a human will twist reality totally on its head rather than admit to himself that he cannot predict the future. THAT is the interesting and frightening point.

- NonE

* political meaning to gain power, not necessarily for the government, but for those who can wield the resultant power to their advantage.

And that's what I meant, here.

Me wrote:

To my mind, the desire to believe there was a conspiracy, in the "Truther" sense, is a psychological defense mechanism that wants to believe that there is some overarching, all powerful entity in charge of everything, even if it's an evil government, rather than accept how truly vulnerable we are to the actions of angry individuals or small groups.

Because if a dozen and a half angry dudes can hijack a few planes any day they want, despite the huge, intrusive, expensive and violent gang of thugs we let trample out freedoms daily, who promise, in exchange for all their abuses, to at least keep us safe from that... well, we're in really deep shit now, aren't we?

If, on the other hand, that gang was in control the whole time, then the system itself, the "government" CAN keep us safe, it DOES control everything, and what went wrong was, evil people used it against us. They would never let some scruffy rag-heads do this! Never! HA! That's rich... no way! Of course it's Bush! Clinton would never do that! And so on.

The conspiracy theory actually brings faith in the competence and power of government to an all time high. The number of voices silenced, the number of witnesses paid off, the precision, skill and luck that'd be required to pull some of these theories off just boggles the mind! The CT narrative just changes this omnipotent power's ends to evil instead of good. It remains the same story, though, and I think that's why "Truthers" want to see "justice done." Because ultimately, they still trust the system to right itself, or at the very least, they see no other means to achieve those ends.

I'm happy to have this meta-debate, in fact I think it's the only thing about the 9/11 situation that has any relevance or meaning anymore. The facts are not entirely known to us, and yes, NonE, the government is concealing a lot of them, but I think it is not a coverup of anything more than their usual incompetence, because they need, like the Wizard of OZ, to direct our attention away from the frantic little man, frail and weak, pulling the strings as fast as he can behind the curtain.

But, we can disagree on that and still talk about what is the meaning behind, and the psychological payoff for, the different narratives that people have adopted. The stories we tell ourselves ultimately imbue our memories with all their power, so lets talk about that, instead.

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Dylboznia

Dyl,

Thanks for that last post. I think we can agree on some things here and have a civilized discussion. I'm too burned out at the moment, but I'll come back to this as you have made some excellent points and some things I'd like to ... I don't want to use the word "debate," but I can't think of a better one, so "debate" it will be.

Cool. Later, dude.

- NonE

I'm still following this post. Will write a reply sometime soon. Can't motivate myself yet .

I don't know, his writing may only be instrumental towards another goal (which I think is trying to dominate/control people like he supposedly was dominated/controled in the past)

Writing then would not be valuable in and of itself, but only towards that goal. Still, this analysis would contradict much of the very valuable stuff that has been talked about in this thread, and so i am not too convinced of this analysis. I don't know, it could be that he gets into a sort of 'Savior' mode when writing and at least superficially is writing 'for mankind' (at least that part of mankind that has a chance of getting it)


Stef may end up like Hitler in his bunker, angry and bitter that his people (Germans) just werent strong enough for his plans, wanting now to see them destroyed and expressing more faith in the Slavs...

just an innocent loose association of course

I just wanted to say that i lost interest in this post. Mostly because my opinion about Stef's philosophy changed, it being far too radical. I did defoo, which i think is the best thing i've done, ever. But in the proces i've almost lost my friends too... which would have been the worst thing, ever...

I also stopped listening to Stef's podcasts anylonger... as a happy person i have troubles connecting to the negativety he's spreading...

Peace!

Conrad, do you mean that he's farther than you are, in that he's left his family? Or that he's farther than you are, in that he's stopped listening to Stefan's podcasts?