The Promise and Failure of UPB--the Inside Story

Patience · Number of posts: 367 Location: England Registration date: 2008-08-26

should have, should've, shoulda - take your pick.

NonEntity · Number of posts: 2598 Registration date: 2007-11-08

You fergot "should of"...

- NonE Wink

Patience · Number of posts: 367 Location: England Registration date: 2008-08-26

NonEntity wrote:

You fergot "should of"...

- NonE Wink

Funny! But I don't think Niall would have said that!

Bigus Dickus · Number of posts: 362 Location: Brazil Registration date: 2008-06-06

I didn't listen to the entire #1025 podcast, but of what I did listen from it; this podcast is the best example of how, no matter what relationship you might have with a certain family member, Molyneux will find "abuse" or "sabotage" or "humiliation" somewhere in the middle (it reminds me of that famous Lavrentiy Beria quote, except Molyneux's version would be, "show me the family member, and I will show you the abuse").

Jesus, the girl's father is giving her some advice about the hardships of the world -as I see it, the prerogative of any concerned person- and this is painted as an attempt to sabotage the girl, to beat her down or whatever.

Alex

QuestEon wrote:

You know, Conrad, I'm not so sure. Molyneux claims a grandiose position for UPB, but in the end it is little more than an "ethical statement lie detector." You shove an ethical principle in, and out pops the answer whether or not it is valid. There is no attempt to define or prescribe a framework of moral behavior.

If my little series stretches into a four-parter, that's what I would talk about in the last section. Not only does Molyneux fail to prescribe behavior, but also--as Danny pointed--he doesn't even bother to say why we should be moral.

At least in NonE's Hopi saying (which actually doesn't seem like a Golden Rule variation to me), there is both a basis for developing a moral framework along with the reason behind it, the "god" if you will--all life must be revered.

Fact is, even Indians and dirty hippies have Molyneux beat six ways to Sunday.

If I still had access to my brain I would have loved to have said some of the things you have here as they've been partly addressed from time to time since LiMi started. I love page 2 (of this thread)'s ponderings r/e Moly's father/academic issues. Something there that I would also suggest ties the so-called 'sycophants' to him as well.

On the other hand:

1. Ignoring everything that has or has not been claimed after UPB...

2. "little more than an "ethical statement lie detector" would be a nifty achievement on its own, and

3. "he doesn't even bother to say why we should be moral" : Things can sometimes best be described by a null-set. If it turns out there is no need / way / point to attacking the question of 'why', but there is a convincing proof against 'why not', then this is 'why', right? In other words, if you try to suggest action without being moral, but every one fails to satisfy the UPB processor (assuming it worked as in #2), then you have a de facto answer to the question: 'Why be moral' (perhaps Smile

)

O.K., I'm missing a few steps in there, but nonetheless this is the way I remember thinking UPB was labeled on the tin, at least implicitly. At least, this is always how I took the theory, and admit I still find it a bit clever, though I ascribe this method originally to other thinkers, especially Socrates.

Actually, I do think Stef sneaks in the 'Why' of morality in several ways in his several presentations of UPB, but that it isn't explicit, nor even inferentially implicit, has always seemed dodgy to many of us. I think Danny did a bang up job of exposing this originally, though having read the entire blog I will admit to being bored to tears though not toooo concerned that probably not many people slogged through with him on his analysis.

It is in fact the sneaking in of 'why' that probably sent the alarm bells off for the more intelligent LiMi'ers and ex-FDR'ers. As a measure of such instinct and intellect I will readily admit to being duped until hearing more cogent arguments about the failure of UPB. I was suspicious before, but for different hypocrisies. Interestingly though, I don't think it is this question that is the major problem with UPB, but that when people feel duped about motive (I would suggest, needlessly so in UPBs case), they tend to start reading the fine print.

That said, I have no marbles left, and apologize if this is just a bit pointless!

Thanks for the great post and writin's Questeon.

_________________
If you lend someone $20 and never see that person again, it was probably worth it.

QuestEon · Number of posts: 552 Registration date: 2008-03-25

Alex wrote:

Thanks for the great post and writin's Questeon.

Thank you very much!

_________________
-Q.E.

QuestEon · Number of posts: 552 Registration date: 2008-03-25

Psychokinesis!

Stranger-than-fiction coincidences!

Philosophy smack-talk!

Irish folk music!

And more analysis of the world's "first top-to-f_cking-bottom proven system of philosophy!"*

Part 3--When Good Men Do Nothing.

*Stefan Molyneux

_________________
-Q.E.

T.E.M. · Number of posts: 230 Location: 'ol Virginny Registration date: 2008-12-05

nice job QuestEon.

nelle · Number of posts: 482 Registration date: 2009-02-09

Bravo! As always QuestEon, your writing is a welcome voice of reason.

cheers

QuestEon · Number of posts: 552 Registration date: 2008-03-25

Yesterday was an all-time high for fdrliberated visitors!

(I knew you secretly wanted to know).

- QE, just as much a stats whore as KarenX, maybe more.

_________________
-Q.E.

KarenX · Number of posts: 71 Registration date: 2009-02-24

Yeah, but I was a stats whore with a rash. Do you have a rash?

QuestEon · Number of posts: 552 Registration date: 2008-03-25

Sigh. No, just an unexplained cough.

_________________
-Q.E.

KarenX · Number of posts: 71 Registration date: 2009-02-24

Black lung. I bet it's black lung.

QuestEon · Number of posts: 552 Registration date: 2008-03-25

Yes, just my luck to be a stats whore who only services coal miners.

P.S. To anyone wandering over to fdrliberated--no, that's not the promised Part 4. Part 3 just had too many words so I split it up. So now the yet-to-be-finished Part 4 is the yet-to-be-finished Part 5. Or something like that.

_________________
-Q.E.

QuestEon · Number of posts: 552 Registration date: 2008-03-25

Finis.
Finito.
In the archives.
Movin' on.

The last chapter--The surprising truth that UPB is actually the ultimate nihilist's handbook.

Part 5--What's a god to do?

I will never speak of UPB again.

New topic coming soon!

_________________
-Q.E.