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 Wiki UPB: problems for Stef

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Conrad



Number of posts: 5123
Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
Registration date: 2007-07-22

PostSubject: Wiki UPB: problems for Stef   Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:09 pm

there is an interesting thread at FDR http://freedomainradio.com/board/forums/102440/ShowThread.aspx#102440

somebody suggests creating a Wiki for the theory of Universally Preferable Behavior.

Interesting and helpful idea you woujld think, it would help in developing the idea further and in spreading the mesage.

But now consider this idea from Stef's perspective and immediately you see 2 huge problems:

1. in a Wiki the theory and its proof have to be really logically worked out and laid out, and the theory has to be applicable to all sorts of circumstances. So a Wiki would really put UPB to the test and it would come in a format wholly unlike the narrative structure ofStef's UPB book.

in short, this would mean that UPB would have to be presented like any other theory and so would lose its 'mystique'. For example, I dare anybody on FDR to paraphrase the theory of UPB and the proof for it. I am 100% confident nobody on the board can do that, and in fact nobody has done it or even tried to (could be on the Premium board section though)
the reason simply is because there are no such clear ideas in Stef's book. The book is one big obfuscation mechanism. Stef says that the book contains the theory and its ultimate proof, but reading through it you get further and further and then reach the end, and you still dont really get what the idea or the proofs are like. FDR'ers then sort of simply assume that the proof is there, even though they dont really understand things yet, they're confused but they assume that everything is in there. A Wiki would reveal that the emperor aint wearing no clothes

2. the second probloem for Stef with a UPB Wiki is that it would be co-written by others (like wiki's are) and possibly even open to questions that then will have to be responded to by Stef and the others. This means that Stef would lose control over the idea of UPB and its presentation( these go together). and it might create real intellectual discussion and examination of the idea and of how Stef defends it. (this is related to (1))

these are the thoughts I had when I read the initial post about the Wiki about UPB. I told my g/f and we both realized that this would be a very interesting thread to follow, to see what Stef is going to say to this, how he is going to wiggle his way out of it. We thought of several possible scenarios but were still surprised by the response he gave. Check for yourself.
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galets



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PostSubject: Re: Wiki UPB: problems for Stef   Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:00 pm

this is actually pretty good observation! I think we should strike first and open that wiki to prevent FDR folks locking it down to members-only
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Conrad



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PostSubject: Re: Wiki UPB: problems for Stef   Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:21 pm

the thing is: Stef won't allow such a Wiki be set up on FDR or somewhere else. If some FDR'er (however well-meaning they are and helpful they try to be) is stupid or brave enough to start the Wiki, either in a thread on FDR or soemwhere else, Stef will try to sabotage the project in subtle and not-too-subtle ways.
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mike barskey



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Location: CA
Registration date: 2007-09-08

PostSubject: Re: Wiki UPB: problems for Stef   Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:14 pm

Conrad wrote:
A Wiki would reveal that the emperor aint wearing no clothes


galets wrote:
I think we should strike first and open that wiki to prevent FDR folks locking it down to members-only


Conrad wrote:
the thing is: Stef won't allow such a Wiki be set up on FDR or somewhere else. If some FDR'er (however well-meaning they are and helpful they try to be) is stupid or brave enough to start the Wiki, either in a thread on FDR or soemwhere else, Stef will try to sabotage the project in subtle and not-too-subtle ways.


Galets is right in that a wiki would only reveal anything based on who can participate. If Stef had a UPB wiki and locked it so only his "followers" could post, it would not reveal that the emperor aint wearing no clothes.

Galets suggested creating a UPB wiki that would not be locked to any non-FDRers, and Conrad said that Stef would try to sabotage it. That's a win-win for us (if we were in a situation where winning mattered)! If no one sabotages the UPB wiki, the theory will be discussed and proved or disproved. And if Stef or an FDRer sabotages it, the purpose for the existence of FDR is revealed (what could be the reason for sabotaging a wiki that discusses the merits/validity of UPB - i.e., that furthers truth - except to block others from validating it as truth?).

If someone created a UPB wiki, and advertised it to various liberty- and philosophy-oriented forums and people, and if it utilized appropriate terms such as "UPB" and/or "universally preferred behavior" and/or "secular ethics" or whatever, then even if Stef created his own competing UPB wiki, people will have a choice when learning about UPB. After all, competition is good.
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Conrad



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PostSubject: Re: Wiki UPB: problems for Stef   Thu Nov 22, 2007 7:39 pm

mike barskey wrote:
Galets is right in that a wiki would only reveal anything based on who can participate. If Stef had a UPB wiki and locked it so only his "followers" could post, it would not reveal that the emperor aint wearing no clothes.

I understand your and his point. My thinking however was that due to the format of a wiki the logical connections between the several elements of Stef's UPB theory would have to be presented and this in itself would already suffice to show that the emperor ain't wearing no clothes: Stef needed the book's narrative structure to obfuscate the fact that there are serious logical (and empirical) problems with his theory. (could also very well be that he himself doesn't realize that there are such problems). Once I find the time and energy and will to continue with my close reading of the book (if anybody else is interested in joining me, pls let me know. it's not easy to get a grip on the book and analyze the arguments exactly because of its narrative structure)

Quote:
Galets suggested creating a UPB wiki that would not be locked to any non-FDRers, and Conrad said that Stef would try to sabotage it. That's a win-win for us (if we were in a situation where winning mattered)! If no one sabotages the UPB wiki, the theory will be discussed and proved or disproved. And if Stef or an FDRer sabotages it, the purpose for the existence of FDR is revealed (what could be the reason for sabotaging a wiki that discusses the merits/validity of UPB - i.e., that furthers truth - except to block others from validating it as truth?).

yeah, I dig. if anybody is interested in starting such a wiki we could do this in connection with my close reading

Quote:
If someone created a UPB wiki, and advertised it to various liberty- and philosophy-oriented forums and people, and if it utilized appropriate terms such as "UPB" and/or "universally preferred behavior" and/or "secular ethics" or whatever, then even if Stef created his own competing UPB wiki, people will have a choice when learning about UPB. After all, competition is good.

yeah. i am pretty convinced though that on its own the book will fail to have an impact on the larger liberty-oriented community anyway though
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