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 Social and Autonomous functions of rights, +/- Liberty

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youngcynic



Number of posts: 31
Registration date: 2009-10-06

PostSubject: Social and Autonomous functions of rights, +/- Liberty   Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:21 pm

So I'm looking at all the rights that human rights organizations follow. I decided to try to sort them based on whether the right is a freedom of choice, which I see as a negative liberty, or a freedom of action, a positive one. I also write whether I think the right is based primarily around autonomy or serves a collective social function. I found that social functions tend to be more positive liberty based, that is, a freedom of action, and rights of autonomy tend to be more about negative liberty, a freedom of choice.

(Let me preface this with saying, this is just my best guess of each right's sorting)

Here are a list of the social rights that are also positive liberties:
right of Association
right of national sovereignty
right of egalitarian religion
right to free, visitation, and transport funded prison system
right to right to dignified life
right to transparency in government
right to nonpartisan investigation into corruption
right to equal pay
right to be adopted
right to a bed to sleep on
right to social security
right to equality for women
right to enact a sin tax
right of speech
right to vote (especially for women and minorities)

Here are a list of autonomy rights that are also negative liberties:
right to public education (to at least 17)
Reproductive rights
right to speedy trial
right to fair and equal representation
right to weapons (outside of prisons)
right of democratic control of media and arts
right to democratic allocation of natural resources (anti-feudalism)
right of conscientious objection
right to strike/slowdown with exception for health care workers, air-traffic control workers, telecommunication workers and possibly fuel workers?
Here are a list of social rights that are based off of negative liberty:
right of Assembly
right to fair use
right of marriage
right to access to healthy food
democratic control of police
right to public health care
right to psychological screening of judges
right to public judicial system

Here are a list of autonomous rights that are also positive liberties:
right of job satisfaction
right of personal sovereignty
right to see evidence against you
right to privacy
right to equality for disabled
right to ethnic equality

Do you think I have sorted any of them wrong? Which ones would you change?

What do you think of my theory?
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Cassandra



Number of posts: 77
Location: Australia
Registration date: 2009-07-18

PostSubject: Re: Social and Autonomous functions of rights, +/- Liberty   Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:03 am

I disagree. I prefer something a lot simpler and less cluttered with ideology:

Significantly, rights are the flip-side of obligations - one person's right is another's obligation

Take health care: Claiming a right to public health care means claiming a right to my property which contradicts my right to not have force initiated against my own property. Also, socialised health uncare simply does not work as has been proved in countries such as Britain, Canada and Australia, where I live.

Another way of thinking of it is in terms of positive and negative rights. Negative rights such as the right not to be interfered with do not require force to be initiated against anyone else, whereas positive rights means making a (positive) claim against someone else's property. As such, there are few justifications for positive rights, one being children expecting to be taken care of until they are adults. Note also that children do not have the liberty that adults have. Responsible adults are not entitled to make claims against other people's property.
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NonEntity



Number of posts: 2598
Registration date: 2007-11-08

PostSubject: Re: Social and Autonomous functions of rights, +/- Liberty   Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:28 am

I disagree. Negative rights are the same as positive rights in that they require something of others. (It took me a long time to come to view it this way.) If I have a right to privacy, for instance, that implies that you do NOT have a right to be curious.

It is much simpler just to recognize that rights are simply wishes. This does not mean that I don't believe that the world is a better place when we all act as if rights exist, it just means that we are believing in magic if we think they exist in reality.

- NonE
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youngcynic



Number of posts: 31
Registration date: 2009-10-06

PostSubject: Re: Social and Autonomous functions of rights, +/- Liberty   Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:03 pm

NonEntity wrote:
I disagree. Negative rights are the same as positive rights in that they require something of others. (It took me a long time to come to view it this way.) If I have a right to privacy, for instance, that implies that you do NOT have a right to be curious.

It is much simpler just to recognize that rights are simply wishes. This does not mean that I don't believe that the world is a better place when we all act as if rights exist, it just means that we are believing in magic if we think they exist in reality.

- NonE


I'm gonna have to really study this, because in all honesty I was in a manic-sleep-deprived-stoned state when I made that other post.

You're right. The right to privacy requires inaction - to not be snooping, not spying, not sneaking. You can be curious all you want and not step on someone's right to privacy if you can control yourself. It requires un-curious actions, not un-curious thoughts (this isn't 1984 folks), though un-curious thoughts are the best way to prevent un-curious action. But anyway. It is a negative right. But that wasn't what I was looking at...

My question was: is it a positive or negative liberty? If it's a negative one, it means to be free from interference, free from an obstacle getting in the way of you acting the way you know is right. Positive is having the resources to act to one's potential, to just be able to go the distance, not necessarily to make it. Let's do a thought experiment and test it out:

The police are spying on an Anarchist protest group (not unheard of by any stretch of the imagination). By doing it in secret, they are withholding the resource of knowledge (that they are being spied on) and therefore hindering the protesters. So I think it is a positive liberty. And if they did it openly, well, it wouldn't really be spying. Now if the police acted on the knowledge they got, well that would be a different question. Suppose they imprisoned you and sent you to trial with secret evidence against you that you couldn't see. Those keeping the evidence secret would be trampling your positive liberty (removing your ability to choose) while those enforcing the decision would be negative (impeding your action).

I don't think rights are as much wishes as they are expectations for others behavior. I basically see rights as expressions of human emotion (See Emotivism). And human emotions exist in reality, so rights do too. If they didn't exist in reality, in our brains, we couldn't think about them.
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Stewart



Number of posts: 1186
Location: Boston, MA
Registration date: 2008-04-03

PostSubject: Re: Social and Autonomous functions of rights, +/- Liberty   Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:27 pm

youngcynic wrote:
If they didn't exist in reality, in our brains, we couldn't think about them.


You are equivocating between a thing and thoughts about that thing. Griffins do not exist, while our thoughts and emotions about them do. This is not the same thing. Griffins do not exist, but we can think about them.

However, if you think that rights are the same as emotions, then yes, rights exist. But when you talk about rights, we should not find any more information in your statements than would be contained in similar statements about vanilla emotions.

In effect, you are saying something like, "It's everyone's emotional expectation to have freedom of speech." And that's a perfectly coherent statement, but I think it's missing some of the connotation that people who typically speak of rights are intending to convey. This is similar to the argument that Conrad often makes (I think) about normative statements containing an ineffable quality about them.

In short, you may consider rights to be merely expectations of other people's behavior. I think that's fine, and it seems totally understandable to me. But to be clear, that is not quite what other people mean when they speak of rights, and that puts your usage at a disadvantage in terms of communication.
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Conrad



Number of posts: 5123
Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
Registration date: 2007-07-22

PostSubject: Re: Social and Autonomous functions of rights, +/- Liberty   Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:41 pm

NonEntity wrote:
I disagree. Negative rights are the same as positive rights in that they require something of others. (It took me a long time to come to view it this way.)

you should read

MacCallum, Gerald (1967) ‘Negative and Positive Freedom’, Philosophical Review, pp. 312-334

You'd like it

Too bad JSTOR doesn't allow me to send a pdf of the article to your e-mail address that I don't have.


Quote:
If I have a right to privacy, for instance, that implies that you do NOT have a right to be curious.

thatspecific example or its formulation doesn't make sense though. I can still be curious and ask you about your life, but you don't have to answer

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NonEntity



Number of posts: 2598
Registration date: 2007-11-08

PostSubject: Re: Social and Autonomous functions of rights, +/- Liberty   Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:14 pm

If I were to look in your window at night because I'm curious (especially as to what it is that is causing you and your girlfriend to make all those funny noises), that would probably be seen to be an intrusion on your "right to privacy" and get my ass thrown in jail.

To me, that implies that your 'right to privacy' impinges on my 'right' (or just my ability) to be curious.

Does that help?

- NonE
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Cassandra



Number of posts: 77
Location: Australia
Registration date: 2009-07-18

PostSubject: Re: Social and Autonomous functions of rights, +/- Liberty   Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:20 am

^Ignoring that in order to peek in my window, you would have to trespass on my property, let's say you were looking through binoculars from your window: Don't people who value their privacy use curtains?


Last edited by Cassandra on Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:24 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : punctuation, capitals and removal of redundant words)
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Phlogiston



Number of posts: 621
Location: NOLA
Registration date: 2007-10-25

PostSubject: Re: Social and Autonomous functions of rights, +/- Liberty   Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:46 am

Cassandra wrote:
Don't people who value their privacy use curtains?

but do they have a "right" to not have to closethe curtains to have privacy?
I find it all nonsense. Rights are just an enforced social mechanism. Without morals it probably wouldn't matter. Who cares what I do? Only if I am hurting people would I need my curtains closed.
That is pretty much New Orleans.
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T.E.M.



Number of posts: 230
Location: 'ol Virginny
Registration date: 2008-12-05

PostSubject: Re: Social and Autonomous functions of rights, +/- Liberty   Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:26 pm

NonEntity wrote:
I disagree. Negative rights are the same as positive rights in that they require something of others. (It took me a long time to come to view it this way.) If I have a right to privacy, for instance, that implies that you do NOT have a right to be curious.

It is much simpler just to recognize that rights are simply wishes. This does not mean that I don't believe that the world is a better place when we all act as if rights exist, it just means that we are believing in magic if we think they exist in reality.

- NonE


Well stated.
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NonEntity



Number of posts: 2598
Registration date: 2007-11-08

PostSubject: Re: Social and Autonomous functions of rights, +/- Liberty   Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:19 pm

Cassandra wrote:
^Ignoring that in order to peek in my window, you would have to trespass on my property...
Another (baseless and incorrect) assumption of rights.

Cassandra wrote:
... let's say you were looking through binoculars from your window: Don't people who value their privacy use curtains?
Egzactly. This is a defacto recognition that there are no rights, only wishes and reality.

- NonE
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