
Liberating Minds
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| | Molyneux's Philosophy of (un)Forgiveness | |
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lordmetroid

Number of posts: 215 Registration date: 2007-08-18
 | Subject: Re: Molyneux's Philosophy of (un)Forgiveness Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:51 pm | |
| I still remember the day I changed my diet from suiting a healthy fit body and went going the path of obesity.
I was invited to my friend's house after school to generally hanging out with him. It was during the age of puberty. My friend ate quite a lot cause of his metabolism during puberty. I also wanted to show me being in puberty(of course I wasn't and has never gone through a normal puberty) so I started to eat a lot and now I can't stop. |
|  | | Patience

Number of posts: 594 Location: England Registration date: 2008-08-26
 | Subject: Re: Molyneux's Philosophy of (un)Forgiveness Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:38 pm | |
| | Forget Me Not wrote: | | It is an impossible situation it's emotional blackmail I want to be able to speak to my child but if I email I know he will drive us apart even further. I spend hours thinking of what I like to say to fix this situation but it would be the worst thing to do, I can't ask for forgiveness though because I have not done anything wrong. |
I agree, any attempt at contact does seem to drive our children further apart from us. When told of a phone call, email or letter, Stef twists the words and the intentions behind them, presenting the message as proof that the parent is still trying to control and manipulate their "victim" or "slave". It's such a cruel mockery of the love and concern that a parent feels for their missing son or daughter. Like you, I don't believe I have done anything wrong. But even if I did, any apology or request for forgiveness would not be heard because Stef has told his members not to listen, not to read an email, not to open a letter. These members are controlled by Stef, he tells them what they can and can't do, what they can and can't think. Even so, they believe they are free.
I hope one day your child will realise that Stef is the prison guard, not you. |
|  | | ExyPhylo

Number of posts: 1261 Registration date: 2007-12-11
 | Subject: Re: Molyneux's Philosophy of (un)Forgiveness Sun Feb 08, 2009 6:56 pm | |
| I find these statements puzzling? Are you honestly claiming to have done "nothing" wrong in your relationship with your child? I am sincerely curious, and don't (in any way) mean to imply or suggest your a bad parent or at fault . I mean to ask "if you can recall anytime you have hurt child unintentionally or intentionally? |
|  | | Patience

Number of posts: 594 Location: England Registration date: 2008-08-26
 | Subject: Re: Molyneux's Philosophy of (un)Forgiveness Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:43 pm | |
| | ExyPhylo wrote: | I find these statements puzzling? Are you honestly claiming to have done "nothing" wrong in your relationship with your child? I am sincerely curious, and don't (in any way) mean to imply or suggest your a bad parent or at fault . I mean to ask "if you can recall anytime you have hurt child unintentionally or intentionally? |
I cannot recall ever intentionally doing anything hurtful to him. It's possible that I have done something unintentionally. I could have hurt anyone unintentionally, without ever knowing. I could have hurt you unintentionally.
Should I apologise to everyone I've ever met, just in case there has been a misunderstanding or offence taken where none was meant? |
|  | | Forget Me Not
Number of posts: 30 Registration date: 2008-11-18
 | Subject: Re: Molyneux's Philosophy of (un)Forgiveness Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:35 am | |
| ExyPhylo - you may find these statements puzzling, but why is it so hard to believe that I did nothing wrong? I was always happy with the relationship I had with my bueatiful child, up until 20 or so months ago, we would have long conversations about anything and everything feeling perfectly relaxed in each others company. Patience makes a good point I was never a prison guard I never stopped him/her coming or going, all I asked was for the odd text message tp let me know my child was alive and kicking.
I believe a middle aged man heard about this great relationship and resented it so much he has used every reason he can think of to destroy it, how damaged he must be to do this I cannot imagine, I can only hope one day my child remembers what we had. |
|  | | Danny
Number of posts: 979 Registration date: 2007-12-29
 | Subject: Re: Molyneux's Philosophy of (un)Forgiveness Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:11 am | |
| I would caution against identifying the thought, "I truly believe that my performance as a parent has not been blameworthy" with the thought, "My child has no reason to place blame upon me for my performance as a parent."
For example, my dad is one of the most loving and wonderful parents I have known, and I couldn't possibly think of him as anything but an incredible father. But he has had a lot of trouble accepting my choice to pursue a career in academic philosophy, particularly given the opportunity I have to take a much more lucrative route in finance (I currently work as an energy industry researcher at an investment firm, but I'm waiting to hear from PhD programs in philosophy; I hope to start in the fall). He thinks I'm foolish to make the choice that I'm making, and has been comfortable voicing that opinion. Were I less self-confident, or less able to take on his point of view, I could certainly see myself feeling very resentful of his attitude and refusal or inability to understand me for who I am.
Clearly, my dad just wants what's best for me, and is actually very supportive of my life choices. He has been interested in my progress in applying to schools, and has been congratulatory towards my accomplishments. I know he's proud of me, and loves me very much. Because I can take his criticism in that context, I cannot fault my dad too badly. He's doing just fine as a parent. But that doesn't mean that there's nothing for me to be objecting to.
In thinking about how your children feel, I think it's important to recognize that even if you haven't been a bad parent, all things considered, we don't always take an "all things considered" attitude when thinking about other people. You have, without any question whatsoever, done many, many things to your child, on your child's behalf, or with respect to your child which have impacted him/her in a way that made him/her upset. As a parent, it's simply not possible for that not to be the case. And in many of those cases, your child will undoubtedly have thought, or continue to think, that you exercised poor judgment, acted for reasons that are incomprehensible to him/her, or behaved inappropriately. Again, it's pretty much impossible for that not to be the case. Many people can take a broad perspective and appreciate the sacrifices and love from which they have benefited. Some people can try to see things from their parents' point of view, and can learn to appreciate just how difficult it is to be a parent. But some people have difficulty with those things, and can come to feel as though their parents have done a worse job than they really have. When that happens, let me reemphasize: THEY AREN'T WRONG BECAUSE THEIR PARENTS WERE PERFECT. THEY ARE WRONG BECAUSE THEIR INSISTENCE ON PERFECTION IS UNREASONABLE.
By insisting that you did nothing wrong as parents, you blind yourself to the undeniable reality that YOU HAVE UNDOUBTEDLY DONE MANY THINGS WRONG AS A PARENT. I hope for your sake and the sake of your children that if/when they decide to attempt a reconciliation, you can appreciate how easy it can sometimes be to mistake the forest for the trees. If you go on insisting that you were perfectly in the right, and that this is something that has been inflicted on you completely without basis, then you cannot possibly hope for a resolution. |
|  | | Forget Me Not
Number of posts: 30 Registration date: 2008-11-18
 | Subject: Re: Molyneux's Philosophy of (un)Forgiveness Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:43 am | |
| Danny thanks for the reply, I like reading your posts you are obviously a very intelligent person. I have my reasons for expressing the fact I will not ask for forgiveness because I have done nothing wrong and I am going to stick with them - sorry, and I do hope for a resolution, if my child does walk away from FDR and remembers what we had there will be no need for one. |
|  | | Danny
Number of posts: 979 Registration date: 2007-12-29
 | Subject: Re: Molyneux's Philosophy of (un)Forgiveness Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:04 am | |
| I can appreciate that. Thanks for the kind words, and I hope that everything works out for you and your family. |
|  | | ExyPhylo

Number of posts: 1261 Registration date: 2007-12-11
 | Subject: Re: Molyneux's Philosophy of (un)Forgiveness Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:04 am | |
| | Patience wrote: | Should I apologise to everyone I've ever met, just in case there has been a misunderstanding or offence taken where none was meant? |
No, I wouldn't even imply that. That statement above in itself is troubling.
| Forget Me Not wrote: | | why is it so hard to believe that I did nothing wrong?". Patience makes a good point I was never a prison guard I never stopped him/her coming or going, all I asked was for the odd text message tp let me know my child was alive and kicking. |
It's not that I think or am even implying you beat or abused your children in anyway. However it's your seeming resistance to explore your contribution or part in the problem that I find interesting and puzzling at the same time. It is likely that you may have dismissed something at sometime that was of interest to your child, or you simply did not take responsibility you part in a disagreement or argument. Perhaps an avoidance of conflict didn't stimulate your child or an inability to see his perspective or admit a wrong, would be highly frustrating.
You can blame Stef all you want. But ultimately his followers make the choice. He doesn't stalk them or physically impound them in his domain, they ultimately choose rightly or wrongly with their own free will to follow his guidance/teachings etc. They chose to abandon you. Perhaps you are a victim, though I would bet your child sees it differently.
I wrote this prior to Danny's post, and I agree with him wholeheartedly. The simple act of accepting responsibility or offering up an apology is a small thing. If you emote all it is that is declared, this would seem to be a fairly simple thing to do. It appears this is not about the child and is more about pride. |
|  | | Guest Guest
 | Subject: Re: Molyneux's Philosophy of (un)Forgiveness Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:25 am | |
| I agree. Danny, that was very nicely written. Kudos to you. Similarly, I can see why, from the response you got, "deFooing" might have been an appropriate choice for this particular person.
- NonE |
|  | | nelle
Number of posts: 628 Registration date: 2009-02-09
 | Subject: Re: Molyneux's Philosophy of (un)Forgiveness Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:47 am | |
| What about when you apologize and apologize, only to be met with stony silence? Then the apology does no good whatsoever - it is only ignored. |
|  | | ExyPhylo

Number of posts: 1261 Registration date: 2007-12-11
 | Subject: Re: Molyneux's Philosophy of (un)Forgiveness Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:14 am | |
| An apology does not erase the damage or deed done.
It only serves to share ones regret with the situation or incident etc.
Perhaps at this time your child is unable to see the situation for what it is, or is unable to forgive you for real or imagined damage.
You make your apology, then move on!... That's about all you can do. The ball is in their court.
This is not about power, winning or being right...it's about love.
Set them free... emotionally, physically or otherwise. (How does that saying go?...hmm...If you love someone ...ugh?? set them free..) |
|  | | eye2i2

Number of posts: 753 Age: 59 Location: southeastern north america ;) Registration date: 2008-09-02
 | Subject: Re: Molyneux's Philosophy of (un)Forgiveness Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:36 am | |
| | nelle wrote: | | What about when you apologize and apologize, only to be met with stony silence? Then the apology does no good whatsoever - it is only ignored. |
Would you be so kind as to clarify the timing of this a bit (if it wasn't rhetorical)? Is the silence after the deFoO or was it more prior to that ie all along/part of the relationship prior to the deFoO? |
|  | | jawol(48)

Number of posts: 237 Location: UK Registration date: 2008-11-16
 | Subject: Re: Molyneux's Philosophy of (un)Forgiveness Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:08 pm | |
| | Forget Me Not wrote: | | Danny thanks for the reply, I like reading your posts you are obviously a very intelligent person. I have my reasons for expressing the fact I will not ask for forgiveness because I have done nothing wrong and I am going to stick with them - sorry, and I do hope for a resolution, if my child does walk away from FDR and remembers what we had there will be no need for one. |
Good for you Forget me Not. Stick to your guns as they say. The only thing you are probably guilty of is ' having a go at life' and you have actually created one. How brilliant is that? Why Mr Potato Head you should surely mind your own business and keep out of others business and their off springs business. Good luck to you Forget Me Not I say and yes it is partly about being proud, after all you are a parent and have every right to be because you have achieved something in life, even if your child does not yet comprehend it or appreciate it. |
|  | | Danny
Number of posts: 979 Registration date: 2007-12-29
 | Subject: Re: Molyneux's Philosophy of (un)Forgiveness Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:16 pm | |
| (Am I Mr. Potato Head?)
Nelle, it can be extremely difficult to be in a position where someone you truly love simply isn't interested in reconciling or repairing a strained relationship. In those kinds of situations, it's often very easy to feel like the other person is withholding something from you (something which you might even feel like you deserve), and that can be very hurtful. But as kids grow up, it's important for them to reflect upon their relationships with their families and relatives and ultimately decide for themselves how they want those relationships to continue (or to not continue!). For most children, that means finding a happy medium between the kind of family involvement that characterizes childhood and their growing need for independence and self-determination. But some people, for whatever reason, come to feel like their relationships with their family are negative elements in their lives, and seek fulfillment outside of their family settings. It's extremely important to their process of coming of age to be able to make that kind of decision, and to feel respected in their choice. Treating them like monstrous, ungrateful youths who don't understand what they're doing will only reinforce the views that lead them to choose separation in the first place.
It will of course be very difficult as a loving family member to simply accept that your child does not want to remain in contact with you. That may especially be true in situations like those which appear to be happening with regards to Stefan's site, where kids are being led astray by some rather unfortunate ideas and potentially manipulative techniques. But as a caring parent, it's also important that you respect your child's emerging adulthood, and acknowledge that true love is not selfish. It will hurt you to watch your child choose separation, but the choice isn't about you, nor should it be. And while younger adults have a very serious interest in having a healthy and supportive relationship with their families, they also have a very serious interest in being able to shape and direct their own lives in the ways that best reflect their own views and desires. So as a parent, it seems to me that it's your job to be there and to be supportive, but to also allow your child the distance that he or she feels is necessary to his or her growth and development.
But then again, I'm 22; what do I know. |
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