I guess I'll start the ball rolling.

First, thank you to Conrad for making this possible. I hope it will benefit a lot of people and I hope as many victims as possible find us.

I have been working with some folks at [url]www.freemindsinc.org[/url]--a cult group with experience with moonies and scientologists--and have asked the guy I have been corresponding with to stop by here occasionally. He and the organization have been a treasure trove of information.

My wife and I have more than one child and we love them equally. We weren't aware when one of them began spending hours and hours listening to podcasts. Unaware that the pleasant happy voice was simply that of a trained actor and that underneath the show was sickness. We didn't know that you don't have to go to the cult compound to get indocrinated. They can get you anywhere, anytime.

I can't describe the pain we feel. In my darkest hours, I have to remind myself that other parents have gone through far worse. At least my child is healthy and well--and above all smart enough to find a way out. I count on that.

My child isn't cruel. I won't believe it. They all get conditioned to believe we won't feel it, or feel it in a way that matters. That our love is simply some kind of anxiety. That they don't defoo us, we defoo them. I believe in my heart that if our child really saw the devastation this has caused, we'd be talking today.

I used to go the freedomainradio site a lot, less so now. There's a kind of sickness there that seeps into you. After a while, you begin to doubt yourself. It took family counseling and learning about cults to help my wife and I keep our heads together.

It's also hard to see new victims show up on the doorstep daily, with no one to warn them. Maybe this forum will help them stop and think about it. Perhaps Molyneux will let us advertise on his site?

Probably not!

Well, that's our story for now. Thanks again, Conrad. I look forward to hearing from more family members who are going through this.

-Ouder

See, I mentioned in the other thread the way that my ex, and Stefan, treat others like robots, refusing to empathize with them, or attribute any subtlety, nuance or intention to their actions, willfully ignoring the context as well as any culpability on their part for potential conflicts, misunderstanding or projection, nor even acknowledging a need to communicate their needs effectively, instead saying, "you oughta know!" QuestEon shows here how Stef specifically states that parents (or other "corrupt" individuals) should be regarded as robots, fully dehumanized, in order to make their rejection easier, guilt free even.

I wrote:

It's a weird form of solipsism, in that they don't attribute intention to others at all, but rather judge them as good or bad solely on their actions, even if they have access to the context and the stated intentions of the offending party, it's as if they were robots or something.

Regarding relating to parents pain, it is pretty easy to ignore it when one does not connect to old relationships and family as they did prior to the group involvement.
The process of undue influence creates a duality of egos/value systems with the original critical thinking ego eventually pushed into the background - - or "closet" - - able to hear the information but no longer the executive system.
The newly created group system is now in charge and viewing all data as it were through the group leaders eyes.
One that has snapped and given their critical thinking over to the group, often seem (to their families and friends) to have become possessed. The individual looks like their loved one but sounds like a completely different person - -
At times when talking about subjects that the group has no rules or policy, it will seem the former person is doing the talking. However, once the conversation strays into the groups territory, it is as though a tape recording begins playing and the individuals posture, speaking pace, perhaps tone, language use changes to how those in the group speak.
Of course it is not a good thing that the original ego is no longer in charge. There is some good news in that the old ego is hearing what is going on and information will pile up and in most cases, eventually assert itself. This is why exit counseling works - - basically a process that gives a lot of information in a somewhat short period of time.
For most victims, however, the information builds up over time.
There a number of ways victims leave groups - - I already mentioned exit counseling.
Most leave by way of walking away (known as walkaways -go figure) This is a good thing especially if they find counseling or good solid information on what had happened to them. Without this help, they may return to the group, search out another similar group, or have a very difficult time resocializing into normal society. They may become badly depressed.
A few become non-productive in the group and are kicked out. They are known as throwaways. Often these victims have become depressed and or mentally ill in some other manner which had surfaced as becoming unable to function.


While it may be of some value to look at what each group uses for doctrine or the content of what they say and do, rather than try to deal with it on it's own merit, it is best to determine how it is being used to unfairly/unethically influence people.
In religious groups ( or philosophy groups), one may discuss the pros and cons of the concepts but is is very difficult to demonstrate how or why one point is more valid than another. Also, it is for the most part, an endless discussion as it is usually very difficult to prove one side or the other.
It is counter productive to attack or denigrate a belief system, religious or other.

A key component in an undue influence environment is to discredit family and friends. One is taught that their difficulties in life can be traced back to poor or even abusive parenting. Anyone supporting the family, is then also part of the problem.
One group will indoctrinate the idea that " Satan works through those you love." - - so when your family finds out you are with us, they will say we are a cult and bad and that we will just use you. When the family reacts normally and begins to say these things, the victim begins thinking the group was right and that Satan is indeed influencing the family and immediately runs away to become much closer to the group. The group becomes the only source of support and information - - an ultimately, influence.
This is implemented in various ways but the result is the same.

Yeah, great post and the analysis seems at least on some level of abstraction eerily applicable to FDR

I found this part especially moving

Quote:

One that has snapped and given their critical thinking over to the group, often seem (to their families and friends) to have become possessed. The individual looks like their loved one but sounds like a completely different person - - At times when talking about subjects that the group has no rules or policy, it will seem the former person is doing the talking. However, once the conversation strays into the groups territory, it is as though a tape recording begins playing and the individuals posture, speaking pace, perhaps tone, language use changes to how those in the group speak.

FDR'ers do tend to 'freeze up' when foundational beliefs of FDR are called into question while they can be genuinely friendly, smart and funny when it comes to other topics.

It would be very different if these deFOO events were precipitated by free inquiry and independent thought, rather than lead by Stefan Molynuex and his followers exerting profound peer pressure, dangling approval and group acceptance as a reward for compliance. Those excruciating podcasts where Stef keeps pushing, pushing, pushing, "right? right? right?" are exemplary of the phenomenon. It is no epiphany earned through long study, basically, those interested in anarchy, Austrian economics or libertarianism find Stef via STR or LRC, poke around his site, get wrapped up in a conversation where they learn their parents are evil and corrupt statists for not sharing their radical political beliefs, and its downhill from there.

Ouder
Does communicating on this board cause problems because the group may be watching? - - only if one is identified.
There is a positive side to this site - - just as Stef's site can recruit some, information on sites like this can also cause ones critical thinking to jump start.
It has happened because of radio programs, published materials and films. Of course, we now have the internet and the wealth of information at our fingertips.

Another book I would recommend on this subject is "Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism." by Robert Lifton. It is the study of Communist Chinese brainwashing techniques of the Korean war. Our soldiers would be captured and within a fairly short time be shown on Movietone news, blasting the US and Democracy.

Chapter 22 holds the 8 conditions Lifton came up with these
if implemented, can cause thought reform.
The one that seems to relate to some of the recent posts is Loaded Language. We all have "inside" language with friends, fellow workers, etc that promotes "groupthink".
It is normal to generally think like those around us but we are not necessarily pressured to be exactly in line with those around us in thought.
Normal group think caused by inside language, is not usually considered secret, nor does it cause one to change how they were thinking or to react in a required specified manner.

In a cult/unethical group, discussion is immediately changed if not terminated when certain language is stated or mentioned. The term is known as thought stopping - - it keeps one from dealing with information critically.
We form opinions based on the information we have. If we are required to limit the information, we are likely to either make poor choices or forced to follow those presented by the group. ( still another poor choice in my opinion) .

This Stef person appears to utilize information overload to help implement his "program".
Our critical system can be forced to shut down by excessive lecturing, praying, singing, game playing, meditating, chanting - - etc. Excessive is the key term here. There is nothing wrong with any of these things for the most part.
Once the critical thinking mechanism goes down, information presented goes into ones memory banks as though it had been thought through and one had made a critically thought out opinion. Then when one is questioned about xyz subject, they have a ready made opinion they will defend as truth - - without realizing why.
It is true, that we generally do not understand how we are influenced and how we come to make our choices and form our opinions - - that's why it is fairly easy to recruit people into these groups.
In my experience, most people entrapped are highly intelligent, highly motivated and come from good stable backgrounds. The opposite of what we tend to envision a cult member as.

Why should we - - anyone dare to speak out and expose these groups? First they are harming individuals and families - - which then is harming communities and beyond.
Should we be afraid? I think cautious and alert are better.
My response to these questions has been to ask " Have you ever known a bully? If the bully was given what they demanded, did they thank you and go away, never to bother again? " In my experience, the opposite is true. However, standing up to them may bring some discomfort and or danger in the short term but they will start looking for more compliant targets soon. These groups are like bullies and cannot stand too much light on what they do and the "fruits" of their operations.

OK, I'm off the soap box for tonight - - we used to say "Don't forget to duck!"