http://www.fdrliberated.com/?p=28


Author's note:

If you have come to this comments thread from www.fdrliberated.com, you may be surprised to notice that it was started in 2008.

This post originally contained a first draft of the edited, added-to, better focused, and otherwise spruced-up 2010 version you've just read.

The first four pages that follow began as a response to that draft. (In the very first response below, by the way, the poster erroneously attributed a criticism of Molyneux to me, when it was in fact from a parent.)

If you are an FDR member, it might feel unsettling to read a conversation with many different viewpoints, freely expressed, with no one getting banned. (Kidding! I know you're not used to humor. Kidding again! Somebody stop me.) Still, anyone who disagreed with any of my opinions was, of course, wrong.

The thread contains a surprise appearance from the parent I quoted who had lost someone to the Geis cult. I suspect he or she was probably shell-shocked after participating in this predominately anarchist coffee klatch. My heart goes out to that person and I sincerely hope that he or she has been reunited with the child who was lost.

I actually enjoyed re-reading these old comments. I had forgotten that this thread also contains (on Page 4) my sole ideological contribution to anarcho-capitalism, which was that in a voluntary society family structure could be based entirely on ponies.

A humble theory, to be sure, but still more defensible than UPB.

that's a very interesting post and analysis QuestEon. well done!

I think Alice Miller's work can be very useful and good to realize what happened in one's childhood, and how things could have been different. But it very easily leads to narcissism and victimhood, and I think it represents one phase of 'therapy' that is unhealthy to get stuck in. Ultimately it has to be balanced by other perspectives.

Hello, I am new to your Forum…… and English is my second language, so bear with me through my grammatical errors.

I am determined to fully understand Mind Control, Thought Reform and/or Brainwashing to help those that are being robbed of their critical thinking. I have a loved one in a cult, and have been researching Mind Manipulation the past two years.

I would like to address followers of Molyneux and Geis:

It is almost always the same scenario: young adult, either just broke up with a partner, lost a job, looking for guidance, first time away from home, on their own = vulnerable, insecure and looking for their place in this world. You come across a charismatic person, that has radical new ideas, and he gives you the illusion of being FULLY understood, and you feel, for once in your life, safe and protected. This is the perfect start into a “relationship” with the Guru and his group of followers.

Those of you being “recruited” feel that they have a radical new perspective on life. You open up and reveal your inner most feelings to the group and the guru, and at the same time you are being diagnosed with a mental disease, and you are being ridiculed by the guru and the group for your feelings and thoughts. Once you are influenced and conditioned by the Guru and the Group, the “deFooing” starts. I am not going into details here; it is quite an “easy” process to make you leave family and friends, once the “ground work” is done. You do not even notice that it is Geis/ Molyneux that is directing your thoughts; you continuously think this is your own free will.

Once the “deFooing” was successful, all you are left with is your group for reliance and appreciation. Then the humiliation starts.

The Guru humiliates you into surrendering completely. Once you are surrendered you feel the need to protect your Guru, your new life, and you do not trust your own judgment anymore. Once the Guru has you conditioned to cut ties with your family and your friends, he uses you for his own purpose, either to satisfy his sexual needs and/or for financial gain, or just for his ever present need to feel grandiose and have the power.

Guru’s like Geis or Molyneux are sick. Mostly all Gurus’ are Malignant Narcissists. Those people will NEVER admit nor seek help in form of Therapy. They are around us, everywhere, and we need to learn to identify them.

One thing I learned early on is that it is not your fault that you are being drawn into something evil. Believing Geis and Molyneux does not make you evil, or your group. It is Geis and Molyneux that are sick and need help.

I do not judge or criticize you. I fully understand why you are in the group. You want to be a better human being.

Leave the group and your surroundings for some time and reflect on yourself. Talk to outsiders and talk to your family. Always remember that our parents did what they thought was right at the time, they never had evil intentions. Blaming our parents for not being consciously aware, makes us consciously unaware and therefore easy bait for Geis and Molyneux.

If you want to be truly free you have to learn to accept yourself and love yourself the way you are.

Wondering, that was a beautiful message, and I hope the members of FDR read it and consider it. Perhaps they will be surprised to see that this misuse of Alice Miller's theories is being identically practiced by two different leaders.

I'm very sorry you have lost a love one to Wayne Allen Geis's cult. I hope conspeclst26 can give you some useful advice.

QuestEon, you going to apply a "beautiful" to this carte blanc and as it stands?! You and I use the word differently if so. Granted, from an emotional perspective, it might be a bit more valid from a sympathetic or emotional temptation. But from a beneficial and accurate perspective, for me it's just not that, and far from it.

That's not to make a comment one way or the other on the Wayne Geis mentioned, because I simply know nothing of him, period (this is the first I've ever heard of him, etc).

Linking to QuestEon's comment about "this misuse of", I'm inclined to say too many specific points in wondering's post do something similar. Here's a couple:

Quote:

It is almost always the same scenario: young adult, either just broke up with a partner, lost a job, looking for guidance, first time away from home, on their own = vulnerable, insecure and looking for their place in this world. You come across a charismatic person, that has radical new ideas, and he gives you the illusion of being FULLY understood, and you feel, for once in your life, safe and protected. This is the perfect start into a “relationship” with the Guru and his group of followers.

Ok, so how many marriages result from these very same situations? Does that make the individual a cult Guru? How many churches capitalize on this very same scenario? But when it's an individual with a philosophy-based forum on the internet, that individual is a "Guru"? I'll address this part specifically to wondering because he said he's new here: many if not most who have challenged me here on my cult-counter-charging would vehemently reply that those are not cults. If one or more get a pass, then so do internet forums-- if one wishes to be consistent, at least.
Granted, "Guru" and even "cult" are inherently subjective, so we're arguing opinion anyways for other than the most blatant abuses of such charismata. My position of: if FDR can be a cult, then family can be a cult, gets very interesting when you toss in just how many of these "families"/cults got started with one of the two spouses being precisely where this section identifies them.

Next:

Quote:

Those of you being “recruited” feel that they have a radical new perspective on life. You open up and reveal your inner most feelings to the group and the guru, and at the same time you are being diagnosed with a mental disease, and you are being ridiculed by the guru and the group for your feelings and thoughts. Once you are influenced and conditioned by the Guru and the Group, the “deFooing” starts. I am not going into details here; it is quite an “easy” process to make you leave family and friends, once the “ground work” is done. You do not even notice that it is Geis/ Molyneux that is directing your thoughts; you continuously think this is your own free will.

"and at the same time you are being diagnosed with a mental disease" is a charge against Stef/FDR?!? That's arguable if not laughable. 'damaged goods', maybe, but mental disease. Bunk.
Then: "and you are being ridiculed by the guru"?!? In my opinion, that's only laughable. After all, as it stands, this "you" has to be every member.
QuestEon, honestly, you think letting those two things stand is "beautiful"?
And this:

Quote:

Once the “deFooing” was successful, all you are left with is your group for reliance and appreciation. Then the humiliation starts. The Guru humiliates you into surrendering completely.

Do you genuinely want to argue that an internet forum group put someone in an "all you are left with" situation?! I charge sensationalism or cult-group-think on this. It's especially laughable when you consider the so-called "loved ones" in the forms of self-proclaimed "family" and/or "spouse" walked away from is what's supposed to put them in the "left with".
Then we're back dancing all around subjectivism with this "humiliates" but it's my opinion that doesn't happen on FDR with any, if any for that matter, anything near regularly. It's arguable that humiliation is a inherent potential anyways considering the diversity of human beings-- seeing as how it's so subjective anyway. And if you factor in how many set out to humiliate Stef and/or some on FDR this is laughable as well.
And this:

Quote:

One thing I learned early on is that it is not your fault that you are being drawn into something evil. Believing Geis and Molyneux does not make you evil, or your group. It is Geis and Molyneux that are sick and need help.

Again, this is "beautiful"? Beautiful hype, if there's any beauty. For one thing, there's no such factual thing as "evil"-- that's arguably evidence of cult-speak itself. There are, factually, only opinions about such and how one values those.
To say carte blanc "its not your fault" is suspect as well-- as just how charismatic is that? doG, at least include an "all" in that. And how subjectively accusatory (and fear mongering) to use the words hyperbole subjective terms "sick" and "need help".
I sense yet more evidence of cult wars, warring for members here. "Beautiful" propaganda. geesh.
And this:

Quote:

I do not judge or criticize you. I fully understand why you are in the group. You want to be a better human being.

How pompous and demeaning. "I fully understand"?!? That's just metaphorically nauseatingly sad. And we're back to this holy cult authority because you can declare what's "a better human being"?!? I mean, really, how is this distinguishable from the "Guru"/charismata charge? Laughable if it wasn't more disheartening sensationalism-- and culty.
Which gets us back to more cult-speak:

Quote:

Leave the group and your surroundings for some time and reflect on yourself. Talk to outsiders and talk to your family.

The first statement and the first half of the last one is one of the few redeemable points of this "beautiful' post IMO. But like most cult/cons (for those who argue for cult labeling) it's followed with the cult's perspective, in this case: "TALK TO YOUR FAMILY".
Why does the family get carte blanc, an unquestioned, unexamined pass? My argument is that this is allowed because of a dogma within the cult of the family.
If the author had said something instead like: 'Reconsider any members of your family that you might could trust to objectively communicate with you, because historically, if one can trust anyone, the best odds are that one's immediate family can be that for you.' But no, and significantly and revealing in my opinion, it's just always family, period-- and since its likely due to cult indoctrination, that explains it easily enough.

Ok, perhaps mostly for wonderful's benefit, let me state as usual, I do not give Stef or FDR my stamp of approval. Both Stef and participants in the FDR forum/"community" are however human, thus fallable, and have some areas and positions I strongly disagree with. In contrast with that, sadly, for my desire there are too many here caught up in anything from hyperbole, to emotionalism, to out right blatant or borderline slander on this Stef/FDR issue. This "cult" label by most/too many touting it, is reactionary bunk, in my opinion.
When it comes to Stef/FDR, I hold that this Guru declaration: "it is not your fault" is precisely what I hear so many accusing Stef of saying! Of course with Stef, it's claimed he says its all your parents/family's fault. Here you are endorsing a declaration of its all the "cult's" fault?!?

Suffice it that I'll wrap this with expressing my sincere disappointment with such as this --you want to talk about "wanting better". I know I've found too much awesome insight via LiMi posters that has much value to me, to have this sort of bias espoused.

I was told before to be careful when using the words “cult” and “Guru”….. ……

Guru = Molyneux, Geis, wife-beater, Jim Jones, Charles Manson (see more here….. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult)

Coffee Cup = red, blue, green, large, tiny, chipped, ceramic, glass, plastic…….(still a coffee cup no matter how you look at it)

I wanted to make my post as short as possible, explaining what the term “cult” and “guru” means to me would have taken away importance in what I wanted to say. And I am a SHE, maybe this has something to do with the emotional part in my message. 

Ok, many marriages/relationships result from the scenario I displayed. “Gurus” can be compared (IMO) to a wife-beater or others that “misuse” you. Women stay with men that regularly break their bones and give them blue eyes. The women protect him, as they are dependent on him, they “love” him, they “adore” him; they “excuse” him and his behavior.

The Guru is always being protected by his “followers”. You are protecting him, just like the woman with the broken arm. Funny thing is: And he could care less about you. He would NEVER protect you in any given situation. He has no empathy, no remorse, no love. He is using you to satisfy his need for POWER.

I could care less about Molyneux or Geis or many other “Gurus”, but reading the endless testimonials from people that are hurt, parents that lose children to “radical new ideas” then I feel their pain, and their helplessness because I can relate. I want to help (…Geis would diagnose me now)…..

The diagnosing Geis does and also Molyneux is something they “use” to control you. Once the “diagnose” hits you, you start to question your own judgments…this self doubt creates a dependency on this “great human being”. Having somebody like Alice Millers “on your side” makes it easier. Alice Miller is being raped, and you are being mind-fuc-#ed. Blaming somebody else for your “faults” is always the easy way out, and in Geis and Molyneux case a “tool” to separate you from your “old” life. Alice Miller’s books are great and I love them. They are valuable for young parents as they show you the different kind of needs a child has, and how to satisfy them. They are valuable for adults, as they show you why you are like you are. Understanding yourself is very important in order to love yourself. Forgiveness plays a big role here. I will not blame my mother for my insecurities because she ate an ice cream right in front of me when I was 3 years old, and with that did not satisfy my need for self adoration. Forgiveness!!! That’s why I would like the “cult member” to speak to their parents and people out of their circle.

“Cult-members” function normally in the outside world. They work at the fast food restaurant, may be your bank teller, or your doctor and your teacher. They see you as the unknowing pathetic masses that float aimlessly in this world without ever knowing the “REAL” truth. They laugh at you, maybe even patronize you. They belong to a group that has a value, a purpose, a goal. Be it

“Evil” is extreme self-serving behavior and a lack of conscience as well as an inability to empathize with others or to feel remorse. There was this case in Austria a few months ago, the father had his daughter locked in his cellar for 20 years; regularly raped her and she had 6 children by her father. He also raped his grandchildren in that cellar. The children grew up in that cellar, never saw daylight. When the father was arrested he showed no remorse. A very prominent Psychiatrist said that the father is evil; there are no other diagnoses for this man. The Psychiatrist refused to analyze and justify the father’s behavior with childhood traumas or mental diseases. Is that unprofessional?

Geis raped minors, promotes prostitution, and has 4 underage children in his house (2 of them teenage girls). Geis had 3 of his children removed by officials because of severe sexual, verbal and physical abuse. His followers see past that because it was “explained” to them why he raped, endangered minors and promotes prostitution. Geis explains the term “cult” to his followers, and why his group is NOT a cult. He claims that every church, every family could be labeled as a cult.

I FULLY UNDERSTAND why people follow “Gurus”. This basic need to constantly better ourselves, advance in life, makes us bait for those charismatic leaders that we meet everywhere. They promote an idea, and we follow. There is a difference in being tricked into buying an upgrade from Microsoft, or to cut ties with your mother and father.
YES, parents get the “unexamined pass” from me, because the love for your child is unconditional.
There are exceptions to the case (like the father that locked his daughter up in his cellar for 20 years)….

I am exhausted.
People ride on the term “cult” “Guru” “evil”, and don’t see what’s really going on. People are hurting. People are being hurt.