Hello mackerman,

Very nice to chat with you. My concern would be that we do not know Billy or his mother. Therefore, we do not know their history, and whether or not his mother's declaration of love in the past has been proven meaningless. What we do know is that Billy has been listening to fdr podcasts, he has been told that her declarations of love are meaningless over and over, therefore that is what he believes. This has little to do with Billy's mother, but has to do with what Billy has been conditioned to believe by what he is choosing to indoctrinate himself with. Billy's mother is simply declaring her honest feelings. She has no control over Billy's choice to indoctrinate his mind with fdr propoganda.

nelle

Nelle if your kid deFOOed you, I will totally understand why.
Translated: You just don't get it.
Good luck believing that your kids were repeatedly brainwashed into thinking that their parents don't love them, when they really did.
I am not saying whether Billy's mom really loved her son or not, I don't know that, I am just saying you don't understand Billy, not only that you REFUSE to understand that anything BUT that conditioning is responsible for it.

What is it you cannot do for your kid? Is it that leaving the Church part? I am not saying that you need to go join FDR, but being so god damn sure that its FDR who is responsible for every single thought in your kid's head is awful.

Thinking that your kid has absolutely no point of his own, just misdirection cannot possibly help if your kid is not an clinically imbecile.

Perhaps this would be some interesting reading material for you, and help you to understand further where I am coming from.

Both of these passages use quotes from articles and essays by Stefan Molyneux. I would like to invite you to read and consider them.

http://www.fdrliberated.com/?p=1060

and

http://www.fdrliberated.com/?p=862

Both are very enlightening.

If you love something, set it free. If it doesn't come back, hunt it down and kill it.

- NonE ;-)

(It would seem to me that the idea of love is one which does not include demands or conditions or expectations. I'm not saying those things aren't natural, but I don't think they are part of "love.")

Thank you for the link, I read them and there was nothing new which I haven't already heard Molyneux talk about(I first found FDR April 08).
I perceived it long time back that according to Molyneux there is no right way of parenting.

But Molyneux has a point, like there were no good doctors in 14th century, there are not good parents in 21st century. Maybe you could say that doctors are studying an art, so take a different example, 200 years ago women were considered too emotional too naive and properties of their husbands. It maybe hard to believe today on why people in 17th century thought women have smaller brains and cannot understand worldly matters, but if you grew up in Asia, in Arab world or South Asian culture you will understand that people there still believe that women are a man's property and they cannot be trusted to think rationally.

You guys are acting exactly like men did before early 20th century to women's rights movement. "Oh I haven't been a good husband but then who is a good husband I am no worse than any other husband, this is the fault of that Suffragette and feminists movement, they have told my Darlene that because I hit her when she is being lazy that means I don't love her, but I DO love her, more than anything. God made us to be together. They have filled my christian wife's mind with devil's teachings."

Is there anybody here progressive enough to recognize their faults, submit to it and then maybe make an effort to make your and your kids lives better. I am sure your kids do wanna have babies of their own, if nothing they would wanna get an experience from you on what to not do.

You guys aren't good parents, just like there weren't any good husbands in 17th century. Even your kids and I don't really think that we can be good parents, but at least I would wanna give it a try.

Another thing I have noticed(I just landed here from google so I had no idea about the rest of the forum), but this is a community where parents and family of people listening to FDR gather around and validate each other that none of them did anything wrong with their parenting, its all Stefan's fault to fill their kid's mind with evil stuff. I don't think FDR is a cult but I may agree that Stefan might be telling everyone that their parents are at fault for everything, but then you guys are no different here thinking that none of you are at any fault its all Molyneux' fault.

Nelle on FDRLiberated there is an article about Molyneux' philosophy of unforgiveness, but in its all honesty I haven't met a single one of the deFOOed parents who deserve forgiveness, not that they have done anything wrong but the sheer amount of denial and guilt transference they do. Though I do have sympathies for APenny if she is correct about her not getting a chance from her kid.

BTW I really went through physical and sexual abuse as a kid, that's why I always find it odd that those who did not go through physical abuse and neglect feel the need of deFOOing(well to be honest I just don't wanna belittle anybody else's pain, because all pain is subjective, just because you had a million dollars in your trust fund doesn't mean your childhood was any less terrible than a poor kid from ghetto). Personally I don't find the need of deFOOing, for now its working fine for me, I am sitting 20 thousand miles away from them and I am glad. But if I have to live in the same city or even same country, I might deFOO myself.

I am sorry to hear of the abuse that you suffered as a child, and can understand why you would not want to be near your parents, of course. However, I'm relatively positive that you do not know anyone on this forum, or whether or not they are willing to admit their faults. This forum is populated with individuals, each one unique, and each one with a different story. Many of whom probably have a great many regrets and would love to have the opportunity to apologize to their loved ones for any faults that they feel they are responsible for. Unfortunately, in a defoo situation, that opportunity does not exist, does it? People who defoo will not speak to their family or friends, nor will they respond to emails, or any other form of communication. That makes any apology or admission of faults impossible, doesn't it? Perhaps a situation where families and friends could come together and discuss the situation, where faults could be admitted freely, and where restitution could be made would be desireable. That would be nice if it were possible for communication to be established.

Mackerman,

As a parent who has been defood, I'm having a hard time understanding how you can lump all parents into the same mold just like Stefan Molyneux does. You have no idea how our sons and daughters were raised. You don't know if they were forced to go to church or not. I've been accused of things that never happened by my son since he joined FDR.

If we were all such horrible parents, why do we have other children who think we did a great job and who still want to be an active part of our lives. I would never think to compare all of my children and it's pretty obvious that they have different personalities and have chosen different paths. I also believe that people can be influenced and I will continue to believe that Stefan Molyneux has influenced his members.

As parents, we also have experienced things that only parents can. We've not only had parents and know what that's like, but we've been parents and that's not something you can explain. You have a love for your child that will never go away. Until you have had that experience, you won't understand how much it hurts to be defood.

We're here at LiMi to try to understand what has happened to our families and why. We can't get those answers from FDR, our sons and daughters or Stefan Molyneux. They have excluded us. Believe me, I've tried.

LiMi is a very open forum and there are many different opinions here. It helps to get those different perspectives and your ideas are welcome, but try not to judge too harshly. We know that we're not perfect and have made mistakes, but as Nelle said "It would be nice if it were possible for communication to be established." Maybe then we could understand what needs to change.

@Waiting
I don't really know how you treated your son or anything, but that's a ridiculous logic about your other kids growing up fine.
My younger brother rarely got hit, but I have taken years of abuse. He loves my mom and dad, I don't.

This ridiculous logic is exactly what Stefan talks about. Just ever listen to his show.

Sure you might be nothing like my parents or any other physical-sexual abusive parents, but you stand on this tower of morality and righteousness where you were living happily ever after and this evil guy Molyneux came and stole your kid from you.
You refuse to come down from that mountain and I am glad your deFOOed kid does not have to face this for even another minute.
I am sorry I am not wishing evil upon you, but among all the poor parents in this thread you are the most annoying of them all.
I came to this thread because I was sad about all parents whose kids deFOOed and I wanted to know how are they doing, but seriously if I had you as my parent 'Waiting' I swear I would have deFOOed myself, and my parents stripped me and kicked me outside the house on the street.
I still would not deFOO to my parents because of what they did in past, now they listen to me, no matter what I have to say, no matter what I wanna do.

If I am to really believe you guys you guys have not done an iota of wrong things to your kids. There is absolutely no personal regrets, not responsibility, forget responsibility no acknowledgement of what you possibly might have done.

Yes I am not a parent, but I would definitely not beat or hurt my kids in any way, and despite of everything if my kids still come to me and tell me that they think I ruined their lives or gave them immense amount of pain, either I am going to stand for what I lived all my life and cut them lose(I know its a ridiculous thing to say and you are going to tell me that since I don't have any kids therefore I am saying it), or accept my mistakes and would try to see the world their way or I will stand on their grounds and show them the consistent viewpoint. And almost none of them involve standing in a forum screaming "A cult leader took my baby from me, now he won't talk to me. Look my other baby is so happy, there was nothing wrong with what I did". You shouldn't even be here on LiMi but be on FDR trying to understand what is the premise of Stefan Molyneux, Maybe he is running a cult fooling people, but you gotta think about what is it what your son found so appealing about FDR's philosophy.

I mean are you really going to tell me that your son never tried to talk to you? I mean maybe APenny is correct her son never gave her a chance, and might have been too hasty, but "waiting" are you seriously telling me that your son never bothered to talk to you and just disappeared one day?

You guys are using the most incorrect approach towards the whole thing. You are approaching it as if your kids have joined Mormons, Jehovah, Islam, Hare Krishna or some other cult whereas your kids really have joined NASA. You are standing and taking advices from the wrong people. But I am really trying to explain it to you but its so hard.

Everytime a parent says 'we know we are not perfect and have made mistakes' its a face palm moment for me. You want a medium of communication, and I understand you deserve it, but the fact is your kids are probably very happy without you, they haven't missed you till now tells you something.

Look if someone fools me and tells me that I am better without my parents and I do that and feel much happier and relaxed then I haven't really been fooled have I? Maybe the feeling of comfort is temporary, then pray they might come back when this feeling goes away. Maybe they do miss you at times but realize the cost to be really high if they got back. On FDR many people call and say that they cut relations with their family but then family tried to convince them so they got back together but then the family acted as if nothing happened and they were back to square one.

My point is, even if a communication channel is opened you are no different than you were all your life. You really don't want to make things better you just want your kids to be out of what you believe is a cult. "Waiting" you wanna show your past performance to your kid and say that you are an awesome parent and that they have got it wrong all along. Jesus Christ you have managed to annoy a someone who isn't even your kid this much I only sympathize what you do to your deFOOed child.

Anyways here is my honest advice to anyone who is listening, even if Stefan is a power hungry cult leader, he is always a step ahead of you, there isn't anyone of you have said which sounds anywhere genuine as in they all have been covered by some or the other caller on his show.

And for anyone who thinks they might have done wrong to their kids(and not just on a relative scale like "oh I wasn't perfect" wrong, but on an absolute scale that you might actually have screwed your kids life or suffocated him) try to actually see what their kids really believe in rather than trying to grasp it through osmosis from sites like fdrliberated.com etc etc, if you don't even understand it, and you still try to talk to your kids then you are doing the same thing for which your kids held your Nuremberg trials and held you guilty for(I would call it "making sh_t up to justify your actions").

And finally for those who wanna wage a crusade against a cult and liberate their kids from the dungeons of FDR by running websites, blogs, newspaper articles forum posts, good luck, I hope you don't lynch Stefan.

Mackerman,

I appreciate your thinking on this subject and your attempt to clearly communicate these thoughts. I'm neither a parent nor... well, actuallly I did 'defoo' my remaining parent, but I did so years ago, long before the Stefmonster came along. Hmm. I feel outside of this conversation, but perhaps I'm not. I will state that Stef is a horrid person from my personal experience and perspective, so I'm not sure that I would want to stand up for his 'defooing' ideas - but maybe they do have value in some places. It appears to me that generally the child is so out of balance on the power curve that the idea of giving him/her 'permission' to actually own his own thoughts and choices is of great value. I know some adults in the later stages of their lives who have never assumed responsibility for their own lives, so maybe there is a valuable message here. If only Stef was not the messenger. The guy is hateful.

One thing I learned long ago from Marshal Rosenberg is that no one can 'make' you feel anything. Any feelings you have are a result of something outside of you triggering your own shit. We each need to take responsibility for our own feelings and take responsibility for the choices we make about dealing with what those feelings are indicating for us. I highly recommend "Non-Violent Communication" in spite of how awkward it seems and how counterintuitive it may feel at first.

Another great tool is "The Work." It's simple and extremely powerful.

In fact, I would recommend (and have) The Work to anyone for a simple and powerful means of gaining clarity on issues quickly and clearly. Watch some of the videos to get an idea of how powerful this stuff is.

I guess my final point would be to say that 'blame' is totally worthless as a modality, and is actually preventative towards moving on in one's life. Get over it. Move on.

- NonE
- NonE

mackerman is not open, he is not "listening" to what the parents here are saying. He is behaving like a typical Molynaught, where only his feelings are valid, and he can tell other people what they are feeling. He is being aggressive, demeaning and attacking people. And really dishonest, especially here:

Quote:

I was sad about all parents whose kids deFOOed and I wanted to know how are they doing

Bullshit, asshole. You're here to pick at scabs, to provoke, to say the things you're apparently too scared to say to your own parents, or maybe, like Molynuex himself, you have a desire to spread your misery and anger outside your own pathetic life, like a virus that infects others with your shitty attitude. I wish you'd go peddle this crap elsewhere, like on FDR where everyone will think you're wise and wonderful the more nastiness and hate you fulminate. It's clear you have inherited a sadistic streak from your parents (genetics is a bitch, eh?). You strike me as the sort of guy who'd keep rubbing a puppy's nose in its own offal, long after any 'teachable moment' has passed. That's what you're up to here, isn't it?

You're just repeating yourself, regurgitating Molynuex, ignoring what people are saying. Everyone's been nice to you so far. I'm not nice. Especially not to the jerk-offs who come in to this little forum all the time, trying to piss in people's cornflakes. Stop it. Go away. Or at least be honest about what your motivations are, troll.

Ah, there is nothing like the sound and fury of the classic Dylbozian Bitch Slap.

Alright Dylboz, I won't reply here anymore. Just to make a point, I didn't really have to be honest about anything which I said if that was really my intention. I made the disclaimer in the first post I made here to establish a perspective, I haven't lied about anything I said because I am not seeking a validation.
When I said that I wanted to know how the parents of the kids who deFOO them are doing, the reason I wanted to know that because I wanted to see if I deFOO my family will they really be able to understand or if someone deFOOs their family how far do they really go.

My conclusion, not very far. This forum is just a place to validate each other's feelings that its Molyneux was at fault not the parents, and that they didn't do anything wrong to their kids.
This makes me establish one thing, deFOOing is not a tool to expect any real change among the parents. I mean I am sure this is a distorted observation considering only the parents who haven't bothered to hold their own feet to fire stand here.

Dylboz, I donno if you have kids or not, but I am sure if you believe when you curse at people they immediately see your point, then your kids probably aren't very happy with you. I wonder why I never tried calling my parents "asshole" sure they would have been more open to my point once someone hears that someone called them a body orifice from where you excrete.

You guys are simply frustrating. If in Molyneux' world parents are at ALL the faults, then in the world of people here, Molyneux' is at every fault(and no 'I wasn't a perfect dad' just doesn't cut it because its a mockery of what your kid wants to tell you, you wanna tell the kid that you were near perfect which is trash).

Thank you Dylboz I am not going to bother replying here anymore. Hope you solve a lot more problems with your angry outbursts.

Here's a parting shot for you. Humans are not perfect. We are not capable of perfection, we don't even know what that means. To abuse a child for failing to achieve perfection is monstrous. But to punish a parent with ostracism for failing to achieve that standard retroactively, in the absence of willful abuse, is absurd. Human relationships entail pain and misunderstanding, because they are made up of two imperfect human beings, doing the best they can with the knowledge and resources they have. Also, much of their behavior is beyond their control, and in the hands of genetics, which complicates things further.

Even more problematic, children's undeveloped senses of reason and sensitive emotions make them feel like they are the center of the universe, an immense gravity around which their parents and siblings rotate, and anything bad they experience emotionally, they internalize and tend to blame on themselves and feel guilt or resentment about. Thus a parent in a bad mood from a hard day at work who just needs some time alone to decompress cannot be understood as anything other than a total rejection of the child herself. It just is that way, unfortunately.

Nonetheless, dwelling in the past, counting up your hurts and holding them against people is not only destructive of your relationships, cutting off any chance of moving forward positively, it is also destructive to yourself, making it impossible for you to see what's right in front of you, good or bad.