
Liberating Minds
|
|
| | Buddhist suffering, the necessary law? | |
| |
| Author | Message |
|---|
NickDanger
Number of posts: 7 Registration date: 2008-12-13
 | Subject: Re: Buddhist suffering, the necessary law? Sat Dec 13, 2008 7:48 am | |
| "For instance, my critique calls into question whether or not asceticism is really Buddhist at all."
Um, this guy named Buddha answered that a while back: no. (See the middle way.) |
|  | | Conrad

Number of posts: 5647 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands Registration date: 2007-07-21
 | Subject: Re: Buddhist suffering, the necessary law? Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:21 am | |
| | NickDanger wrote: | | The whole "the universe is a Turing machine" concept is whack. First of all, we know already that the universe is not deterministic. Secondly, what is it supposed to be "computing"? Did God have some really big math problem he couldn't solve on his own? Thirdly, we already know that human minds are not UTMs, as shown by Godel, so a larger system that contains certainly cannot be a UTM. |
I don't think Godel has shown that at all. See Hofstadter's GEB wherein he digs both Godel and Turing.
(that said, I don't really know what to make of a statement like 'the universe is a Turing machine'. Not saying I agree or disagree but I just don't really know what it means, what its implications or presuppositions are and it would take me too much time and energy to get a decent grasp on it. ) |
|  | | Danny
Number of posts: 979 Registration date: 2007-12-29
 | Subject: Re: Buddhist suffering, the necessary law? Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:03 pm | |
| Given that the meaning of suffering you have in mind in your example is clearly different from the idea that Buddhists have in mind when they talk about suffering, is it really appropriate to try to link this idea to their way of looking at the world?
Also, where did you get the idea that a universe can achieve nirvana, and that this would occur when the universe is saturated with life? Your use of the Pali spellings of Buddhist terms suggests that you've been studying Theravada Buddhism, but I can't remember anything in what I learned about their views that would suggest anything like that. The idea you're talking about sounds almost like the Eighth Consciousness of the Yogacara school, though I'm not particularly well versed in this idea. Is this what you had in mind? If so, could you tell me more about it? And why would saturation with life have anything to do with an end to suffering?
One thing that pops out at me is that you seem to have defined cosmic "suffering" to basically mean "decay," but as far as we know, decay is simply a permanent feature of the workings of the universe. Accordingly, cosmic nirvana (which you've characterized as an end of cosmic suffering) would be impossible. No? And that seems rather antithetical to the way Buddhists like to think about the universe; it would seem to lead us to reject the last two Noble Truths (though they referred to suffering of a very different sort than we are discussing here).
An important question that remains for me is why you think that suffering is the product of decay. If my girlfriend walks out on me, then the correct account of my sadness does not point out that since the time when my girlfriend and I were together, the universe decayed, producing the current state. The point is that I was emotionally attached to my relationship with my girlfriend, and I am now filled with desires that are now frustrated. |
|  | | kimochinews

Number of posts: 30 Registration date: 2007-11-24
 | Subject: Re: Buddhist suffering, the necessary law? Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:10 pm | |
| | NickDanger wrote: | The whole "the universe is a Turing machine" concept is whack. First of all, we know already that the universe is not deterministic. Secondly, what is it supposed to be "computing"? Did God have some really big math problem he couldn't solve on his own? Thirdly, we already know that human minds are not UTMs, as shown by Godel, so a larger system that contains certainly cannot be a UTM.
The way that can be named is not the true way. |
Hey Nick!
I think you're referring to quantum mechanics? Non-determinism is one interpretation of quantum mechanics, and determinism, usually involving hidden variables, is another interpretation. I admit, the scientists who feel that quantum mechanics is deterministic are in the minority. I think that quantum mechanics must be deterministic, because determinism leads directly to the second law, whereas non-determinism seems to be contradictory to the second law.
I'm trying to find you a link to a nobel prize winner that I read who believes that quantum mechanics is deterministic. One of his testable conclusions is that therefore quantum computing is physically impossible; indeed, we've seen every attempt at quantum computing fail, only to have the failures explained away by the alleged difficulty in protecting qubits from decoherence.
Second, computing is a general concept that describes any process. If the universe is operating according to rules, then it is "computing", and for every state in the universe the computational result is the future.
About your third comment, I'm only aware of Godel's mathematical proofs. I'm not aware of his showing that brains are non-computable. In fact, I'm not even sure what a non-computable object would look like. It would seem that a brain would have to be exempt from causality to be non-computable... what does it mean to have objects in the universe that are exempt from the rule of the universe?
If you're right about brains being non-computable, then this also doesn't bode well for the field of general AI. I hope you're wrong, because I, for one, welcome our mechanical overlords.
Thank you for your insight! |
|  | | kimochinews

Number of posts: 30 Registration date: 2007-11-24
 | Subject: Re: Buddhist suffering, the necessary law? Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:46 pm | |
| | Danny wrote: | | Given that the meaning of suffering you have in mind in your example is clearly different from the idea that Buddhists have in mind when they talk about suffering, is it really appropriate to try to link this idea to their way of looking at the world? |
I know it sounds very different. I don't think the link I'm making is a typical one to make. Thank you for bearing with me.
I think that the Necessary Law also directly corresponds to the LTV, which is something that those upholding the LTV might disagree with. But I think that this is the "true" meaning of the LTV, as I think that this is the "true" meaning of Buddhist suffering.
| Danny wrote: | | Also, where did you get the idea that a universe can achieve nirvana, and that this would occur when the universe is saturated with life? Your use of the Pali spellings of Buddhist terms suggests that you've been studying Theravada Buddhism, but I can't remember anything in what I learned about their views that would suggest anything like that. The idea you're talking about sounds almost like the Eighth Consciousness of the Yogacara school, though I'm not particularly well versed in this idea. Is this what you had in mind? If so, could you tell me more about it? And why would saturation with life have anything to do with an end to suffering? |
I'm focusing on the simplest parts of Buddhist metaphysics. Can we prove that suffering is necessary, not just for humans, but for any arbitrary matter in the universe? Can we show the cycle of rebirth, and its resolution in nibbana to be a physical fact of the universe? The Buddhist tradition does have a rich vocabulary, yet I'm drawn to explaining and understanding these terms thoroughly before I move on to more complicated ones.
About the saturation of life--this is the universe's only means of slowing down the second law, and my definition of life is precisely any phenomena that locally thwarts the second law. So, it seems to me that life is the only means by which the universe can reach nibbana.
| Danny wrote: | | One thing that pops out at me is that you seem to have defined cosmic "suffering" to basically mean "decay," but as far as we know, decay is simply a permanent feature of the workings of the universe. Accordingly, cosmic nirvana (which you've characterized as an end of cosmic suffering) would be impossible. No? And that seems rather antithetical to the way Buddhists like to think about the universe; it would seem to lead us to reject the last two Noble Truths (though they referred to suffering of a very different sort than we are discussing here). |
The version of the second law that I've demonstrated is a greater-than-or-equal-to inequality. Information_Content(Past) >= Information_Content(Present). So, my cosmic nibbana can be seen as the period in time for the universe in which I_C(Past) == I_C(Present).
| Danny wrote: | | An important question that remains for me is why you think that suffering is the product of decay. If my girlfriend walks out on me, then the correct account of my sadness does not point out that since the time when my girlfriend and I were together, the universe decayed, producing the current state. The point is that I was emotionally attached to my relationship with my girlfriend, and I am now filled with desires that are now frustrated. |
You and your girlfriend formed a living system, and there is a certain amount of suffering that must be experienced as a result of that breaking up. However, the tendency is to "grind the gears", to linger in the experience and feel more suffering than is mandated by the universe.
To understand why there must be some suffering, think about the neurons that were dedicated to producing value by interacting with your partner. And, now that the partner is gone, these neurons are basically engaged in meaningless activity until they can adjust.
The extra suffering does result from attachment. If the neurons in question refuse to change their jobs, then they can be further estranged from the rest of the mind and eventually produce much more pain than necessary.
Quite the contrary, I think that seeing suffering as fundamentally resulting only from attachment can be harmful. Should one "detach" from one's girlfriend prematurely? No, I think that nibbana is participating harmoniously, fully, and without "grinding the gears" in all of the various living systems one is involved in. |
|  | | Danny
Number of posts: 979 Registration date: 2007-12-29
 | Subject: Re: Buddhist suffering, the necessary law? Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:05 pm | |
| Okay, there's a lot there, so let's try to address your points one by one. First, by "LTV," do you mean Labor Theory of Value? If so, what does the labor theory of value have to do with physics? |
|  | | kimochinews

Number of posts: 30 Registration date: 2007-11-24
 | Subject: Re: Buddhist suffering, the necessary law? Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:13 pm | |
| | Danny wrote: | | Okay, there's a lot there, so let's try to address your points one by one. First, by "LTV," do you mean Labor Theory of Value? If so, what does the labor theory of value have to do with physics? |
Hehe, I briefly mentioned it in my first post, and that was a long time ago 
Basically, due to the second law, the product can never contain more value than the producer. So, the value of the product is limited by the value of the producer. It's the same argument that I've been using to create the second law.
A producer can only create by "spending" some of his information content into the product, and then regaining his spent value by absorbing value from food, the sun, etc. I_C(Sun, Producer, Food) >= I_C(Producer after producing, Product)
This is the physical calculus of production, and it doesn't have anything to do with prices, which as we know are governed by the Subjective Theory of Prices.
However, we can expect prices in a market to reflect the LTV to the degree that the market is free from violence and is efficient. I'm sure that I will alienate both Austrians and LTVers by a statement like this, although something tells me that Kevin Carson might agree.  |
|  | | Conrad

Number of posts: 5647 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands Registration date: 2007-07-21
 | Subject: Re: Buddhist suffering, the necessary law? Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:15 pm | |
| | kimochinews wrote: | | Danny wrote: | | Okay, there's a lot there, so let's try to address your points one by one. First, by "LTV," do you mean Labor Theory of Value? If so, what does the labor theory of value have to do with physics? |
Hehe, I briefly mentioned it in my first post, and that was a long time ago 
Basically, due to the second law, the product can never contain more value than the producer. So, the value of the product is limited by the value of the producer. It's the same argument that I've been using to create the second law. |
but isn't the problem that value is subjective and the second law objective so that the two are incommensurable/incomparable so that to say 'Basically, due to the second law, the product can never contain more value than the producer' is making sort of a category mistake? |
|  | | kimochinews

Number of posts: 30 Registration date: 2007-11-24
 | Subject: Re: Buddhist suffering, the necessary law? Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:24 pm | |
| | Conrad wrote: | | but isn't the problem that value is subjective and the second law objective so that the two are incommensurable/incomparable so that to say 'Basically, due to the second law, the product can never contain more value than the producer' is making sort of a category mistake? |
Yes, I prefer to call the Subjective Theory of Value the Subjective Theory of Prices for this reason. There is a sense in which a person values objects (which really just means that each person assigns different prices to them) and then there is also a sense in which atoms themselves encode information (value) in their arrangements. This is The Intrinsic Theory of Value, and of course it is also a physical fact.
And yes, the senses of value mentioned in the subjective theory and the intrinsic theory are of different types. The prices of the subjective theory and the information content of the intrinsic theory interplay in the free market, and over time the market will tend to create higher prices for objects with higher intrinsic value, etc.
The Labor Theory of Value refers to the action of the second law of thermodynamics on intrinsic value. Namely, intrinsic value cannot increase over time in a closed system.
I hold all three theories of value to be valid, and to each be talking about different aspects (and senses) of value. |
|  | | kimochinews

Number of posts: 30 Registration date: 2007-11-24
 | Subject: Re: Buddhist suffering, the necessary law? Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:26 pm | |
| I hope it's not seeming like I just pick random topics and try to claim that they are related in mysterious ways :p |
|  | | Danny
Number of posts: 979 Registration date: 2007-12-29
 | Subject: Re: Buddhist suffering, the necessary law? Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:33 pm | |
| Okay I think this is an interesting idea, but we can safely discuss cosmic suffering without relying on it; if possible, I'd like to leave this point until later so we don't get side tracked and never finish the original conversation. If you'd like, though, we can talk about it in another thread.
I want to skip to your fourth point, because I think it represents one of the core problems we're working with here. You seem to be implying that the reason there is attachment, and therefore suffering, is because people naturally enter into some kind of biological systemic relationship with the objects of their attachment, and therefore when those objects are no longer able to perform their functions in the system, the individual experiences suffering. Is this a correct summation of what you were trying to say?
If so, then I'm not sure you're working within the tradition of Buddhist thought; this is not exactly the way that I've heard Buddhists speak of the relationship between attachment and suffering. A Buddhist would argue that there is no system composed of an attached individual and the object of his attachment; there is only a misguided mental habit on the part of the attached individual grounded on a static and persistent understanding of a set of circumstances necessarily characterized by permanent flux and impermanence. The suffering does not occur because of the flux, which is an inherent part of the universe, but rather because of the mental habit. That's why Buddhists like Nagarjuna argued that there's no real difference between nirvana and samsara; they're just two ways of looking at the same thing. Does that make any sense? |
|  | | kimochinews

Number of posts: 30 Registration date: 2007-11-24
 | Subject: Re: Buddhist suffering, the necessary law? Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:54 pm | |
| | Danny wrote: | | I want to skip to your fourth point, because I think it represents one of the core problems we're working with here. You seem to be implying that the reason there is attachment, and therefore suffering, is because people naturally enter into some kind of biological systemic relationship with the objects of their attachment, and therefore when those objects are no longer able to perform their functions in the system, the individual experiences suffering. Is this a correct summation of what you were trying to say? |
Yes, that's right. I think that this is the reason why a healthy mind experiences suffering. For example, the Buddha would experience suffering if his limbs were removed, one by one, for precisely this reason. The reason he's able to use his limbs is that parts of his mind are dedicated to manipulating them, and there would be a period of time he would spend reintegrating these parts of his mind to useful purposes.
However, I think that there are pathological reasons to develop attachment where none need exist, like becoming addicted to smoking. In this case, there's no life-affirming purpose for the attachment.
In Buddhist terms, it might be that only the latter sense qualifies as Buddhist attachment?
| Danny wrote: | | If so, then I'm not sure you're working within the tradition of Buddhist thought; this is not exactly the way that I've heard Buddhists speak of the relationship between attachment and suffering. A Buddhist would argue that there is no system composed of an attached individual and the object of his attachment; there is only a misguided mental habit on the part of the attached individual grounded on a static and persistent understanding of a set of circumstances necessarily characterized by permanent flux and impermanence. The suffering does not occur because of the flux, which is an inherent part of the universe, but rather because of the mental habit. That's why Buddhists like Nagarjuna argued that there's no real difference between nirvana and samsara; they're just two ways of looking at the same thing. Does that make any sense? |
I think that nibbana and samsara depend on which system you are talking about. Where do you draw the box? What part of you do you identify with? There are systems that would always count as being in nibbana: the free market, the sum of human life on the planet, the Earth.
Or you can draw the boxes around systems that exist in samsara: the ego, the state, the solar system, the universe.
In this way we're members of a variety of systems that are in nibbana or samsara. I think a lot of Buddhism amounts to the question, "which systems do you chose to identify with?"
I don't think this erases the difference between life and suffering, or nibbana and samsara. |
|  | | NickDanger
Number of posts: 7 Registration date: 2008-12-13
 | Subject: Re: Buddhist suffering, the necessary law? Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:35 pm | |
| | kimochinews wrote: | | NickDanger wrote: | The whole "the universe is a Turing machine" concept is whack. First of all, we know already that the universe is not deterministic. Secondly, what is it supposed to be "computing"? Did God have some really big math problem he couldn't solve on his own? Thirdly, we already know that human minds are not UTMs, as shown by Godel, so a larger system that contains certainly cannot be a UTM.
The way that can be named is not the true way. |
Hey Nick!
I think you're referring to quantum mechanics? Non-determinism is one interpretation of quantum mechanics, and determinism, usually involving hidden variables, is another interpretation. I admit, the scientists who feel that quantum mechanics is deterministic are in the minority.
|
Yes, I'd bet it's about 99% - 1%, but that's just a guess.
| Quote: | I think that quantum mechanics must be deterministic, because determinism leads directly to the second law, whereas non-determinism seems to be contradictory to the second law.
I'm trying to find you a link to a nobel prize winner that I read who believes that quantum mechanics is deterministic. One of his testable conclusions is that therefore quantum computing is physically impossible;
|
You can't test whether or not something is impossible!
In any case, there is a much stronger reason for rejecting all deterministic theories: they are all self-refuting. If you say to me "The universe is deterministic," then you must admit to me that you said that not because you think it is true but because "The universe made me say it."
| Quote: | Second, computing is a general concept that describes any process.
|
No it isn't, not without abusing the English language.
| Quote: | If the universe is operating according to rules, then it is "computing", and for every state in the universe the computational result is the future.
About your third comment, I'm only aware of Godel's mathematical proofs. I'm not aware of his showing that brains are non-computable.
|
His whole point in writing that paper was to show that, although a formal system (such as a UTM) could not see the truth of a Godel statement, WE can, and thus are not formal systems.
| Quote: | In fact, I'm not even sure what a non-computable object would look like.
|
And I'm not sure what a 'computable object' would look like! This is a very funny way of using English words you've got.
| Quote: | It would seem that a brain would have to be exempt from causality to be non-computable... what does it mean to have objects in the universe that are exempt from the rule of the universe?
|
Only under the absurd definition of 'computation' offered above does it mean this! |
|  | | NickDanger
Number of posts: 7 Registration date: 2008-12-13
 | Subject: Re: Buddhist suffering, the necessary law? Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:38 pm | |
| | kimochinews wrote: | | I hope it's not seeming like I just pick random topics and try to claim that they are related in mysterious ways :p |
You were hoping that wasn't too obvious, hey? |
|  | | kimochinews

Number of posts: 30 Registration date: 2007-11-24
 | Subject: Re: Buddhist suffering, the necessary law? Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:42 pm | |
| Thank you for your replies, Nick!
I don't really have a response, but I wanted to let you know that I'm thinking about what you said. |
|  | | | | Buddhist suffering, the necessary law? | |
|
Similar topics |  |
|
| | Permissions in this forum: | You cannot reply to topics in this forum
| |
| |
| |
|