Guns, violence and epistemology

Subject: Guns, violence and epistemology Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:23 am

Whenever I think to myself or discuss with others, I make the case that generally tighter gun laws lead to more violence, and use praxeological arguments as well as empirical data (such as the fact that this country where I live has extremely strict gun laws and 50,000 homicides a year). But I was thinking: couldn't it be said that violence is a complex phenomena where no ceteris paribus situation or isolation of variables could ever occur, and that therefore no relationships of causality could be prooved or disprooved through empirical evidence? One would conlcude from this line of reasoning that empirical evidence can at best "illustrate" a conclusion arrived at via aprioristic reasoning.

At the same time, I suspect that trying to explain this to anyone I am trying to persuade could lead them to think I am full of shit and that I attempt to distance myself from "the grim facts of reality" by latching on to praxeological gobbledygook... so I would be compelled to not tell them everything I think.

Guest

Praxeological considerations, presuming any assumptions apply, would still influence action in a definite direction. The question is simply whether they are the prime or overriding factors, and how various idealogical and mechanical circumstances interact in the formation of values and rational action. Other processes may, of course, 'swamp' the deductive facts of economy, for example if a huge iridium asteroid struck india we may very well doubt if it would be able to significantly improve its division of labor even permitted entirely free markets and safety from all crime and fraud.

Number of posts: 13 Registration date: 2010-09-28

Forget utilitarian arguments. The real reason people should go armed, if they want to, is that it is nobody else's damn business. The state is wrong for the same reason it is always wrong, because it is an agency of aggressive violence.

Subject: Re: Guns, violence and epistemology Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:50 pm

I don't think it matters that Instances of Gun violence among criminals and defending citizens are ceteris paribus situations, because practically all situations are, if you consider enough detail. However, the laws of statistics and logic still apply when answering questions about Gun control, so I don't think it is a significant limitation on our reasoning. I also agree with Paul74 that it's no one else's business if free individuals own guns.

EDIT: The Avatar of a soldier with a big gun is completely coincidental, by the way.

Number of posts: 237 Location: UK Registration date: 2008-11-16

Skyler827 wrote:

I also agree with Paul74 that it's no one else's business if free individuals own guns.

No point in owning a gun if you cannot freely use it.

jawol(48)

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Subject: Re: Guns, violence and epistemology Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:05 am

jawol(48) wrote:

No point in owning a gun if you cannot freely use it.
jawol(48)

Yes, and that's because none of us are free individuals. I think the only way to perfectly solve the problem is to get rid of the state, and let people either protect themselves, or delegate the responsibility directly to people or organizations they trust. But I digress, that's a topic for another thread. As far as any federal republic goes, we can't solve the issue of gun control, because our government, or any government, which sets the rules for us on gun control, has conflict of interest between protecting us and increasing it's own power.

Number of posts: 237 Location: UK Registration date: 2008-11-16

Skyler827 wrote:

As far as any federal republic goes, we can't solve the issue of gun control, because our government, or any government, which sets the rules for us on gun control, has conflict of interest between protecting us and increasing it's own power.

Individuals that possess guns that are shall we say 'unregulated' in that the existence of the weapon is hidden from any authoritative figure ie Government, take ownership of such for why? to feel empowered perhaps?.
Sadly in the UK this year we have seen 2 very alarming incidents arising out of the misuse of guns against individuals.
Guns are perfectly safe when in the hands of folk who are in control of their emotions to the point of not taking a life.
When that control is lost then the consequences are catastrophic for society.
Equally so Governments who choose to regulate the individual in gun control need also to be fully in control of their own gun use. How can society continue in tolerating being governed by the same people who will turn their weapons against another nation?
I sometimes wonder what has become of what we call Humanity when I see the carnage of war throughout history.
From an early age we see depicted in TV programmes that the guy with gun usually wins. We see little of gentle persuasion and sensible reasoning being to the fore, guess it would not have the same sudden impact.

jawol(48)

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Ever lost a raffle ticket? then wished it wouldn't win?[b]

Number of posts: 237 Location: UK Registration date: 2008-11-16

jawol(48) wrote:

Guns are perfectly safe when in the hands of folk who are in control of their emotions to the point of not taking a life.
When that control is lost then the consequences are catastrophic for society.
Equally so Governments who choose to regulate the individual in gun control need also to be fully in control of their own gun use. How can society continue in tolerating being governed by the same people who will turn their weapons against another nation?

jawol(48)

But then again what should we do when confronted by mad persons?

jawol(48)

_________________
Ever lost a raffle ticket? then wished it wouldn't win?[b]

Subject: Re: Guns, violence and epistemology Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:55 am

jawol(48) wrote:

Individuals that possess guns that are shall we say 'unregulated' in that the existence of the weapon is hidden from any authoritative figure ie Government, take ownership of such for why? to feel empowered perhaps?.
Sadly in the UK this year we have seen 2 very alarming incidents arising out of the misuse of guns against individuals.
Guns are perfectly safe when in the hands of folk who are in control of their emotions to the point of not taking a life.
When that control is lost then the consequences are catastrophic for society.
Equally so Governments who choose to regulate the individual in gun control need also to be fully in control of their own gun use. How can society continue in tolerating being governed by the same people who will turn their weapons against another nation?
I sometimes wonder what has become of what we call Humanity when I see the carnage of war throughout history.
From an early age we see depicted in TV programmes that the guy with gun usually wins. We see little of gentle persuasion and sensible reasoning being to the fore, guess it would not have the same sudden impact.
jawol(48)

I suppose. If governments could control their own "gun use" then they might do a better job regulating such use among it's citizens, but I don't think any government could, because it will never have to pay for the wars it starts, for the people it kills, for the lives it destroys, and communities it wreckes. All any state gets is the increased tax revenue, more political capital from the fear it can instill in its citizens, and more influence from it's larger size. Trying to tell a state to not start wars or keep taxes low would be like asking slaveholders to treat their slaves well, while still owning them. It may have been done, but it generally just doesn't happen.

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