
Liberating Minds
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| | Rothbard & Fractional Reserve Banking | |
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Dylboz

Number of posts: 2159 Registration date: 2007-09-20
 | Subject: Re: Rothbard & Fractional Reserve Banking Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:29 pm | |
| NO, I explicitly stated that above. The reserves let them cover small withdrawals, checks and other day-to-day transactions. What's critical is that everyone does not try and withdraw their entire account balances all at once, because there will not be enough to cover those withdrawals AND honor their other obligations because of the new money they've created IN THE FORM OF CREDIT!!!! The reserves are a FRACTION of outstanding liabilities, that's WHY it is called FRACTIONAL RESERVE BANKING. Dude, you're so smart, why is this eluding you? _________________ Please check out my blog! Dylboznia |
|  | | eye2i2

Number of posts: 753 Age: 59 Location: southeastern north america ;) Registration date: 2008-09-02
 | Subject: Re: Rothbard & Fractional Reserve Banking Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:44 pm | |
| | ReIgNoFrAdNeSs wrote: | When you make a deposit in a bank, it is not a bailment. The bank isn't simply storing your money.
What is actually happening, is that you are loaning the bank money...
Your bank balance then, is simply a statement of how much money the bank owes you.
When you demand payment, they simply pay you out of their reserves...
At no point, is any new money created. |
As a suggestion, I offer that you're playing too loosely with the term "money". I'd offer that for the common folk, and particularly inflationary consideration, money = FRNs; and from my understanding, it is the printing of FRNs* that can cause "inflation", no? Or is that but yet another yet-to-be-proven-but-popular theory?! [*inflation = more FRNs than there is collateral value/"stuff"? I've never heard that bookkeeping entries cause inflation, but I may be incorrect]
FRNs ie money can then be created=printed when items like checks, as mere 1s & 0s (bookkeeping entries), are "deposited" by one person while another withdraws cash. FRNs ie money can also be created=printed when security claims require it, etc.
What seems relevant (or suspect) is: upon what foundation/values FRNs are printed (how many/what denominations)? FRS policy goals are stated to include supplying FRNs/money supply equal to/based upon collateral (securities).
It gets interesting, to me, to consider that most folks don't get paid money (FRNs) and thus don't deposit money --and so to ask: when does money come to exist (playing loosely with the term "exist").
Meanwhile, here's to hoping someone can provide proof i.e. the code or a FRS document, that FRS's Fractional Reserve Banking = multiplication ($10=$100)... or we can put that theory to the trash bin. [which wouldn't cart blanc endorse the FRS, as it's still Government individuals with guns enforcing Their evaluations/values.]  |
|  | | Dylboz

Number of posts: 2159 Registration date: 2007-09-20
 | Subject: Re: Rothbard & Fractional Reserve Banking Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:46 pm | |
| Even the Federal Reserve and Keyenesian economists like Krugman acknowledge that new money is created, in fact they aver it MUST be created, to keep the economy growing and healthy, and that FRB is the way to do it. Have you never read Krugmans's famous baby sitting coupon essay on exactly how it works? Google it.
Credit is how they create new money, which is inflationary. Defaulting on that credit is how money is destroyed (it just gets written off) which is deflationary. If no new money were created, why would they keep statistics on exactly how fast the money supply is growing? They did that, you know. It was called "M3," until it got so out of hand that the government stopped reporting it for fear of causing a panic. It's not a "conspiracy theory," you just cannot, for some reason, understand it. _________________ Please check out my blog! Dylboznia |
|  | | Dylboz

Number of posts: 2159 Registration date: 2007-09-20
 | Subject: Re: Rothbard & Fractional Reserve Banking Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:51 pm | |
| When credit is extended at a factor of 10 to 1, and the banks all honor each other's paperless credit transactions, it becomes rapidly inflationary, because banks are counting these non-existent credit dollars as if they were real FRN's, and then extending $10 worth of credit on each one of those. You can imagine that this cycle can easily explode (as we have just seen it do) once it becomes apparent that there are not actually that many dollars, let alone assets, in the world. The credit extended in this recent boom created debt obligations that exceeded the GDP of the entire world several times over. That can only occur via the multiplicative effects of FRB. _________________ Please check out my blog! Dylboznia |
|  | | Guest Guest
 | Subject: Re: Rothbard & Fractional Reserve Banking Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:10 pm | |
| | Dylboz wrote: | | When credit is extended at a factor of 10 to 1 |
I know of no process by which that is accomplished. If you can explain to me such a process, I'd appreciate it.
I DO know of a process by which money can be transferred between people 10 separate times. Is that what you mean? |
|  | | Guest Guest
 | Subject: Re: Rothbard & Fractional Reserve Banking Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:11 pm | |
| | Dylboz wrote: | | Credit is how they create new money |
To my knowledge, credit is simply a loan, and a loan is simply a transfer of money from one person to another. It is not the creation of new money. |
|  | | Guest Guest
 | Subject: Re: Rothbard & Fractional Reserve Banking Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:18 pm | |
| | Dylboz wrote: | | NO, I explicitly stated that above. The reserves let them cover small withdrawals, checks and other day-to-day transactions. What's critical is that everyone does not try and withdraw their entire account balances all at once, because there will not be enough to cover those withdrawals AND honor their other obligations because of the new money they've created IN THE FORM OF CREDIT!!!! The reserves are a FRACTION of outstanding liabilities, that's WHY it is called FRACTIONAL RESERVE BANKING. Dude, you're so smart, why is this eluding you? |
I don't believe that credit represents "new money". It represents a transfer of money from one person to another. |
|  | | Dylboz

Number of posts: 2159 Registration date: 2007-09-20
 | Subject: Re: Rothbard & Fractional Reserve Banking Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:40 pm | |
| It's not a matter of "belief," it's a matter of fact. You're simply not comprehending what you're looking at. How do you explain debt obligations, CREDIT, that exceeds the total GDP of the entire world several times over if there's no "new money" created? You can't loan many times more than you have, than the entire world has, by making "simple transfers of money." RoR, you're being willfully ignorant here. I really don't know what else to say. I can link you to a graph for M3, that shows the exponential explosion in the money supply commensurate with the credit boom, and you;d have to face the fact that new money was being created at exactly the same rate as the creation of new loans and other debt based securities. Would that satisfy you? Why are you being so obtuse? http://seekingalpha.com/article/21027-the-return-of-m3-money-supply-reporting_________________ Please check out my blog! Dylboznia |
|  | | Stewart

Number of posts: 1202 Location: Boston, MA Registration date: 2008-04-02
 | Subject: Re: Rothbard & Fractional Reserve Banking Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:40 pm | |
| RoR, consider the following scenario:
1) I deposit my life savings of $100 into Conrad's bank. 2) Conrad has to hold onto $10 of that, but he lends the other $90 to NonE, who was otherwise broke.
How much money do I have? I have $100, all in my bank account, which I can access at any time.
How much money does NonE have? He has $90, in cash, which he can do whatever he wants with.
Before this series of transactions, I had $100 in cash, and NonE had nothing. Now I have $100 in savings, and NonE has $90 in cash. We went from $100 in cash to $90 in cash + $100 in savings. And since savings and cash are all denominated in the same units, it may as well be $100 in cash to $190 in cash. That's the inflationary nature of fractional reserve banking. |
|  | | Stewart

Number of posts: 1202 Location: Boston, MA Registration date: 2008-04-02
 | Subject: Re: Rothbard & Fractional Reserve Banking Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:45 pm | |
| And just to be clear: I imagine your objection will be that after Conrad's bank lends my $90 to NonE, I won't really be able to access my savings at any time. After all, if I withdraw more than $10, I will break the bank.
That's true, except that most banks have more than one customer. So unless there is a run on the bank, this illusion of additional money is able to continue. And with the advent of central banking, the individual banks are able to provide liquidity even when a run on the bank occurs.
In other words, it's all leveraged up in a game of musical chairs, and the government does whatever it can to prevent the music from stopping. |
|  | | Dylboz

Number of posts: 2159 Registration date: 2007-09-20
 | Subject: Re: Rothbard & Fractional Reserve Banking Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:15 pm | |
| Right, and if NonE deposits that $90 in another bank, they'll lend out 81 bucks while still telling him his balance is $90, so the multiplier effect is compounded, the money supply goes up exponentially that way. _________________ Please check out my blog! Dylboznia |
|  | | Guest Guest
 | Subject: Re: Rothbard & Fractional Reserve Banking Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:34 pm | |
| | Stewart wrote: | How much money do I have? I have $100, all in my bank account, which I can access at any time. |
All that means (your bank balance) is that the bank OWES YOU $100. Your bank balance is a statement of what the bank owes you. If you demand payment, the money comes out of the bank's reserves. It does not come from your original deposit (this is where everybody is going wrong in their thinking). 90% of the original deposit has been lent out, the other 10% is in reserve. The whole purpose of reserves is to meet the bank's customer obligations.
This idea that a loan creates new money is a fallacy that is clearly widespread, and must be intentionally perpetuated. Nonetheless, it's an absurd explanation, for something that is actually far simpler.
Everyone is in the Matrix on this one. What you've been told, isn't true. That's not how it works.
Last edited by ReIgNoFrAdNeSs on Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|  | | Guest Guest
 | Subject: Re: Rothbard & Fractional Reserve Banking Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:36 pm | |
| | Dylboz wrote: | | Right, and if NonE deposits that $90 in another bank, they'll lend out 81 bucks while still telling him his balance is $90, so the multiplier effect is compounded, the money supply goes up exponentially that way. |
The balance is how much the bank owes him. There is no multiplier effect. If the bank pays him back, it will come from the bank's reserves. This is the whole reason that the law requires banks to maintain reserves. There is no multiplier effect. It's a complete myth. Why this myth has been perpetuated... I couldn't tell you... |
|  | | Conrad

Number of posts: 5647 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands Registration date: 2007-07-21
 | Subject: Re: Rothbard & Fractional Reserve Banking Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:07 am | |
| | Stewart wrote: | RoR, consider the following scenario:
1) I deposit my life savings of $100 into Conrad's bank. |
It's gone. |
|  | | Guest Guest
 | Subject: Re: Rothbard & Fractional Reserve Banking Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:27 am | |
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