What is a slave and what is a prisoner? (rough notes)

Number of posts: 32 Location: Kiev Registration date: 2009-09-15

Stewart wrote:

Vana, your post has some punch to it, but I think it's light on philosophical weight. If you replace the words "slave" and "prisoner" with "fromble" and "kreenork", the the post will have a lot less punch, but it will contain exactly as much meaningful information.

"Would a rose by any other name smell so sweet?"

Is it light, or so heavy you can't pick it up at all?

(How do you feel toward women?)

Stewart wrote:

By the way: Nietzsche called, and he wants his crazy-talk back.

Maybe this will help? Very very key concept in the Phenomenology...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master-slave_dialectic

A slave's body is free, but his mind is 'not'.

A prisoner's body is not free, but her mind is free.

Do you have a will? An ancient legal principal states, that at death: "There is no property in the body." Though in life, some body can have any number of properties. And one corp can own another corp. But human slavery is an illusion, a slave is not ever 'really' the property of some body.

See how that works? Very very key concept in Anti-Oedipus,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_without_organs

Submit only to Allah!

Number of posts: 1202 Location: Boston, MA Registration date: 2008-04-02

Vana, I have almost no idea what you're talking about.

yeah, good luck with that philosophy group

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Number of posts: 369 Location: Brazil Registration date: 2008-06-05

ReIgNoFrAdNeSs wrote:

In fact, I would be inclined to argue that poems are WORSE when they actually try to make some kind of point. To me (according to my own personal tastes), a poem should be like a painting, and I shouldn't have to ask, "What is it trying to say?".

What about songs? I don't really like it when song lyrics don't make any sense. It's what bugs me about At the Drive-In and Mars Volta, which are otherwise great bands.

Guest

It's all over now, Baby Blue...

- NonE

Number of posts: 32 Location: Kiev Registration date: 2009-09-15

Conrad wrote:

yeah, good luck with that philosophy group

Thanks Conrad! So far so good!

It's amazing, when you do things, you succeed!

I'm sure more mockery will follow. Its a product of boredom x self-contempt. Sorta like how drool is a product of pancakes x bacon. KUTGW dudette.

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If you lend someone $20 and never see that person again, it was probably worth it.

Number of posts: 32 Location: Kiev Registration date: 2009-09-15

Alex wrote:

I'm sure more mockery will follow.

I could have made a mistake?

What do you think is the difference between a slave and a prisoner?

Guest

Vana wrote:

What do you think is the difference between a slave and a prisoner?

It depends on how we define our terms.

I hope you don't think that a word can only have one definition.

I also think it's a false dichotomy. A prisoner can be a slave, and a slave can be a prisoner. The word "slave" generally implies some form of forced labor. A prisoner, is usually considered to be someone forced into confinement. As such, slaves are often prisoners, and prisoners are often slaves. Of course, both words can be used metaphorically as well.

Number of posts: 32 Location: Kiev Registration date: 2009-09-15

ReIgNoFrAdNeSs wrote:

Vana wrote:

What do you think is the difference between a slave and a prisoner?

It depends on how we define our terms.

I hope you don't think that a word can only have one definition.

I also think it's a false dichotomy. A prisoner can be a slave, and a slave can be a prisoner. The word "slave" generally implies some form of forced labor. A prisoner, is usually considered to be someone forced into confinement. As such, slaves are often prisoners, and prisoners are often slaves. Of course, both words can be used metaphorically as well.

In my view, the slave is 'really' totally free. The slave submits to an unreality: the master's death threat. Why does the bondsman trust the lord to deliver on his threat? Don't forget, you're free to die. "Give me liberty or give me death." You actually have to call their bluff if you want to be free.

Duress is an admission, not a defense.

Deaf-mutes, illiterates, and amnesiacs... freedom's heroes.

Forget the Alamo!

Guest

Vana wrote:

In my view, the slave is 'really' totally free. The slave submits to an unreality: the master's death threat.

Yeah... I wouldn't call the choice between death and slavery "total freedom".

While it's true that a slave is free to choose between those two things (death and slavery), there are many other options the slave is not free to choose. As such, I would not consider the freedom (of choice) to be "total".

If someone gave me the option between eating a sock for dinner, or a bowl of nuts and bolts, I would hardly consider that to be "total freedom". In fact, it's quite easy for me to imagine a situation in which I have MORE freedom, or even FAR MORE freedom (far more options).

I guess you're trying to divorce the concept of freedom from the concept of having options...

I'm not really sure what the point of that is. Many people (most people probably) associate "freedom" with having options. For most people, being a slave is the opposite of freedom. You can tell people all you want, that what they call "slavery", you call "freedom". Personally, though... I would just say you're playing a silly word game. You would be better off trying to understand what people in general associate with terms like "slavery" and "freedom". After all, you are not the Queen of the English language. Language is emergent.

Number of posts: 32 Location: Kiev Registration date: 2009-09-15

ReIgNoFrAdNeSs wrote:

Vana wrote:

In my view, the slave is 'really' totally free. The slave submits to an unreality: the master's death threat.

Yeah... I wouldn't call the choice between death and slavery "total freedom".

No one ever compels your will but you. Total freedom is independent of circumstance. External compulsion of the will is not. Of the body, sure, it's called being pulled down and bound, or a heart attack, or whatever; but no one can ever make you do anything you don't want to. Not a command, or commandment. Not a gun to your head. Not even torture.

Quote:

While it's true that a slave is free to choose between those two things (death and slavery), there are many other options the slave is not free to choose. As such, I would not consider the freedom (of choice) to be "total".

There are infinity things you can not do, such as growing wings and flying over the moon! Look at the infinity things that you can.

Quote:

If someone gave me the option between eating a sock for dinner, or a bowl of nuts and bolts, I would hardly consider that to be "total freedom". In fact, it's quite easy for me to imagine a situation in which I have MORE freedom, or even FAR MORE freedom (far more options).

I'm talking about the choice between eating a sock for dinner and death.

Liberty or death', means you have to call their bluff. And if you die, no loss, it was all free anyway.

Torture happens. People do hold out under torture. Can you? You can do anything.

But I wouldn't feel comfortable telling anyone not to be a slave, it's their free choice. Slavery [illusion] is not necessarily a bad thing, and everyone is free to choose slavery.

Quote:

I guess you're trying to divorce the concept of freedom from the concept of having options...

Freedom has nothing to do with options. Options implies prefabrication; which there is none.

Quote:

I'm not really sure what the point of that is. Many people (most people probably) associate "freedom" with having options.

Most people are living in a dream of imaginary 'have to's and 'has to be's and 'mustn't's -- you know that.

Quote:

For most people, being a slave is the opposite of freedom. You can tell people all you want, that what they call "slavery", you call "freedom".

A slave is compeled by something imaginary, a threat; not by a real force against the will. This is why we say things like 'a slave to money'. A slave and a prisoner both, by the fact of their being living souls enjoy in what in law is called liberty. No one can ever make you move a muscle against your will. And you can not move a muscle but by your will. This is why you have 'freedom of movement'. You have the 'freedom of expression' and 'the right to remain silent' because they are your natural capacities, they originate from 'inside' you, and they have no external cause whatever. 'Free-thought' obviously could never be stopped.

Quote:

Personally, though... I would just say you're playing a silly word game. You would be better off trying to understand what people in general associate with terms like "slavery" and "freedom".

That would be backwards. I chose these words to express a concept that I wanted to address you about. The concept of will, liberty, and right.

Quote:

After all, you are not the Queen of the English language. Language is emergent.

I very well am a sovereign. I am above the law. How could something I created be above me? I am the judge of what things mean, how things are, and of what is right and what is wrong.

Where there is no option, there is no freedom. Stoics discovered that though we may arrive at a place and time when we can control nothing outside ourself; we even still keep their minds. Don't forget about the Guru who holding his or her hand in the flame does not flinch, but if focused on Nirvana.

Guest

Vana wrote:

no one can ever make you do anything you don't want to. Not a command, or commandment. Not a gun to your head. Not even torture.

I'm not real sure what you're trying to say here. Let's look at rape (as an example):

If someone puts a gun to your head, with the intent of raping you, they are providing you with a choice (between death and rape). If you choose rape over death, does this mean that you wanted to be raped? Of course not. It only means that you would prefer rape to death. It doesn't mean that you prefer rape to having a cup of coffee, or watching TV (or whatever you were going to do before someone put a gun to your head). The only reason you are in the position of having to choose between rape and death, is because someone has put you in that position. Someone is forcing you to choose between rape and death. What other choice do you have? For you to say that you are in that position because you want to be, is outrageous. You didn't ask to have a gun stuck to your head. You didn't ask to be raped, nor to be shot. Someone is making you choose between those two things.

Number of posts: 32 Location: Kiev Registration date: 2009-09-15

ReIgNoFrAdNeSs wrote:

Vana wrote:

no one can ever make you do anything you don't want to. Not a command, or commandment. Not a gun to your head. Not even torture.

I'm not real sure what you're trying to say here. Let's look at rape (as an example):

If someone puts a gun to your head, with the intent of raping you, they are providing you with a choice (between death and rape). If you choose rape over death, does this mean that you wanted to be raped?

If you are talking about a death threat, that's slavery. If you are talking about bound and gagged, that's a prisoner. (A slave is a mind slave, a slave to $ymbols and signs; a prisoner is a body prisoner, a prisoner of chains and bars.)

Quote:

Of course not. It only means that you would prefer rape to death. It doesn't mean that you prefer rape to having a cup of coffee, or watching TV (or whatever you were going to do before someone put a gun to your head).

Of course yes. I would prefer a lot of things, let me tell you! But if you go left and not right, and a bus hits you, you chose death. The fact that you did not know what you were choosing is what tragedy is. There is no (Greek) tragedy without a free-will.

(Hint: no matter what you choose, you get death.)

Quote:

The only reason you are in the position of having to choose between rape and death, is because someone has put you in that position. Someone is forcing you to choose between rape and death. What other choice do you have?

For you to say that you are in that position because you want to be, is outrageous.

No one asked to be born. Sure. But situation does not limit freedom. The will is free, period. How else do you move your arm but by moving it, or think thoughts but by thinking them? Sometimes you're stuck between a rock and a hard place. Rape, or death? Thousands of people make this decision everyday. (What did you think this whole article was about!?) That is a choice yes.

It is obvious to all children that the Nazi-death-camp officers ought to have killed themselves. Or at least resisted. You only need to stand up against the fascists and challenge them to kill you; nine-times-out-of-ten they won't; if we don't start standing up and demanding 'liberty or death', then guess what you get: slavery. Welcome to the American dream, welcome to the USSA!

Quote:

You didn't ask to have a gun stuck to your head. You didn't ask to be raped, nor to be shot. Someone is making you choose between those two things.

In life however, the choice is almost never like this; there is not a choice between two, or three or however many options, instead there are infinite possibilities.

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What is a slave and what is a prisoner? (rough notes)

What is a slave and what is a prisoner? (rough notes)

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