My interchange with Stefen

Number of posts: 31 Registration date: 2009-10-05

http://insignificantbreakthroughs.blogspot.com/2009/10/my-message-to-steven-moleneux.html

I have now come to believe that the number one indicator of bipolar disorder is his delusions of grandeur - the notion that his theories are the best thing to happen for thousands of years and that he is the light of the world.

Subject: Re: My interchange with Stefen Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:57 pm

youngcynic wrote:

http://insignificantbreakthroughs.blogspot.com/2009/10/my-message-to-steven-moleneux.html

I have now come to believe that the number one indicator of bipolar disorder is his delusions of grandeur - the notion that his theories are the best thing to happen for thousands of years and that he is the light of the world.

To give him his full title of "Stefan Molyneux, MA", he certainly does appear to believe his mission is to bring "truth and reality" to the world, being qualified to do this by getting an A for his history thesis and marrying a therapist.

Subject: Re: My interchange with Stefen Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:00 am

Ha! Interesting exchange. I'm surprised he even replied, especially as he did.

To be sure, I think Narcissistic Personality Disorder is his main problem.

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Number of posts: 31 Registration date: 2009-10-05

Conrad wrote:

Ha! Interesting exchange. I'm surprised he even replied, especially as he did.

To be sure, I think Narcissistic Personality Disorder is his main problem.

Bipolar is often misdiagnosed as NPD because people can act very narcissistic in their manic phases (I should know).

Quote:

Bipolar patients in the manic phase exhibit many of the signs and symptoms of pathological narcissism - hyperactivity, self-centeredness, lack of empathy, and control freakery. During this recurring chapter of the disease, the patient is euphoric, has grandiose fantasies, spins unrealistic schemes, and has frequent rage attacks (is irritable) if her or his wishes and plans are (inevitably) frustrated.

The manic phases of the bipolar disorder, however, are limited in time - NPD is not. Furthermore, the mania is followed by - usually protracted - depressive episodes. The narcissist is also frequently dysphoric. But whereas the bipolar sinks into deep self-deprecation, self-devaluation, unbounded pessimism, all-pervasive guilt and anhedonia - the narcissist, even when depressed, never forgoes his narcissism: his grandiosity, sense of entitlement, haughtiness, and lack of empathy.

Narcissistic dysphorias are much shorter and reactive - they constitute a response to the Grandiosity Gap. In plain words, the narcissist is dejected when confronted with the abyss between his inflated self-image and grandiose fantasies - and the drab reality of his life: his failures, lack of accomplishments, disintegrating interpersonal relationships, and low status. Yet, one dose of Narcissistic Supply is enough to elevate the narcissists from the depth of misery to the heights of manic euphoria.

Not so with the bipolar. The source of her or his mood swings is assumed to be brain biochemistry - not the availability of Narcissistic Supply. Whereas the narcissist is in full control of his faculties, even when maximally agitated, the bipolar often feels that s/he has lost control of his/her brain ("flight of ideas"), his/her speech, his/her attention span (distractibility), and his/her motor functions.

The bipolar is prone to reckless behaviors and substance abuse only during the manic phase. The narcissist does drugs, drinks, gambles, shops on credit, indulges in unsafe sex or in other compulsive behaviors both when elated and when deflated.

Sleep disorders - notably acute insomnia - are common in the manic phase of bipolar and uncommon in narcissism. So is "manic speech" - pressured, uninterruptible, loud, rapid, dramatic (includes singing and humorous asides), sometimes incomprehensible, incoherent, chaotic, and lasts for hours. It reflects the bipolar's inner turmoil and his/her inability to control his/her racing and kaleidoscopic thoughts.

(http://samvak.tripod.com/journal71.html)

Number of posts: 147 Registration date: 2008-05-09

I think the temptation to diagnose Stefan is interesting. To you in particular, youngcynic, what evidence do you have for recurring clinical depression in Stef? And about mania, I see the point about grandiosity, but which other symptoms of mania does Stef exhibit? I don't think Stef's speech is "on edge" or disjointed enough to really be considered manic speech.

Number of posts: 31 Registration date: 2009-10-05

Deep Purple wrote:

I think the temptation to diagnose Stefan is interesting. To you in particular, youngcynic, what evidence do you have for recurring clinical depression in Stef? And about mania, I see the point about grandiosity, but which other symptoms of mania does Stef exhibit? I don't think Stef's speech is "on edge" or disjointed enough to really be considered manic speech.

Nobody can make a clinical diagnosis but we can point to worrying symptoms. So far I haven't found anything depression related (though some irritability hints at it it's not much, I'm also betting his time in therapy in his 30's involved some of that). I don't think we ever see a depressed Stefan but that doesn't mean that he doesn't have bipolar disorder. It could just mean he chooses to only put on his "happy-salesman" face to the world.

Coming from a family with people with the illness, I consider myself a little better than the layman at recognizing symptoms. The extreme glee he gets when talking combined with the sense that he can't get his words out fast enough and the humorous asides all point to mania. I've seen it in my father and in myself.

It's also interesting that before I even read about the NPD theory, I was thinking Bipolar. The fact that people recognized similar symptoms and funneled them into these two diagnoses (the two of which often get confused) by separate people provide evidence for them being real.

Guest

I would also point out that definitions are static boxes into which we place fluid, dynamic actions, and infinitely variable manifestations of human instantiation.

In that respect these 'diagnoses' are valid at least as helpful pointers.

- NonE

Number of posts: 147 Registration date: 2008-05-09

youngcynic wrote:

Deep Purple wrote:

I think the temptation to diagnose Stefan is interesting. To you in particular, youngcynic, what evidence do you have for recurring clinical depression in Stef? And about mania, I see the point about grandiosity, but which other symptoms of mania does Stef exhibit? I don't think Stef's speech is "on edge" or disjointed enough to really be considered manic speech.

Nobody can make a clinical diagnosis but we can point to worrying symptoms. So far I haven't found anything depression related (though some irritability hints at it it's not much, I'm also betting his time in therapy in his 30's involved some of that). I don't think we ever see a depressed Stefan but that doesn't mean that he doesn't have bipolar disorder. It could just mean he chooses to only put on his "happy-salesman" face to the world.

Sure, and Stef might wear ladies' sun dresses all day long, but he knows he's got an image to maintain so he puts on men's clothing for meetings with his followers and for his YouTube videos. It could most certainly be true, but we don't get to call him a transvestite without evidence. What do you call bipolar disorder that doesn't present with depression? Mania. And even then, I would disagree with the diagnosis of mania.

NonE -- Diagnosis is an inaccurate way of describing most people. It's a short-hand useful in some settings, but why would we want to make speculative diagnoses instead of being content with the obvious "symptoms"?

Guest

Deep Purple wrote:

NonE -- Diagnosis is an inaccurate way of describing most people. It's a short-hand useful in some settings, but why would we want to make speculative diagnoses instead of being content with the obvious "symptoms"?

If I follow what you're saying, I think that's kinda sorta what I said (or at least what I heard myself saying in my mind).

- NonE

Number of posts: 147 Registration date: 2008-05-09

Hmm, maybe we agree more than I first thought. To make any possible disagreement more clear, I don't think these diagnoses are helpful pointers. I think they're distractors. What do they help point to?

It is interesting, though, the desire to pathologize the people with whom we disagree. With Stef it's a little different, because we don't just disagree with him, we think he's hugged up in the head, or at least adept at hugging with other people's heads.

Number of posts: 31 Registration date: 2009-10-05

Deep Purple wrote:

Hmm, maybe we agree more than I first thought. To make any possible disagreement more clear, I don't think these diagnoses are helpful pointers. I think they're distractors. What do they help point to?

It is interesting, though, the desire to pathologize the people with whom we disagree. With Stef it's a little different, because we don't just disagree with him, we think he's hugged up in the head, or at least adept at hugging with other people's heads.

I do have a reason for being worried about his symptoms and it's not that I happen to disagree with him. It's that he is pulling families apart and although social interaction on forums can be very therapeutic, it might not be enough. Manias can be dangerous things. Decision making abilities are often severely tempered by some grandiose goal.

The women's clothing analogy is a false dichotomy. It's a binary. He either is wearing them or not. But bipolar presents either one of two sides (mania, depression) a mixed state or just seeming normal. So there's more to work with than just blind speculation.

What's most important is to understand why he thinks what he thinks, which includes his thought process that gets him there. If you leave out a variable, such as a possible biochemical differentiation you won't get the full picture and won't be able to counter him as well as you could.

He could also serve as another example as to what can happen with unchecked bipolar disorder.

Number of posts: 147 Registration date: 2008-05-09

youngcynic wrote:

I do have a reason for being worried about his symptoms and it's not that I happen to disagree with him. It's that he is pulling families apart and although social interaction on forums can be very therapeutic, it might not be enough.

So you disagree with him on whether or not these people should be in contact with their families, or at least disagree with his belief that he can help them make that decision, right?

Quote:

The women's clothing analogy is a false dichotomy. It's a binary. He either is wearing them or not. But bipolar presents either one of two sides (mania, depression) a mixed state or just seeming normal. So there's more to work with than just blind speculation.

Unless you can point to depression in Stef, it's a perfect analogy. You said that Stef could be depressed, we've never seen it because he doesn't show us that face. I said Stef could be a cross-dresser, we've never seen it because he doesn't show us that outfit.

Quote:

He could also serve as another example as to what can happen with unchecked bipolar disorder.

Except without evidence of depression, there's no evidence of bipolar disorder, so it's not an example of what can happen with unchecked bipolar disorder.

Number of posts: 31 Registration date: 2009-10-05

Mania in and of itself is evidence of bipolar disorder.

Number of posts: 147 Registration date: 2008-05-09

If you want to diagnose him with Bipolar I without a depressive incident, then you need to specify when the manic episode occured. When did he start and stop being manic? He's been like this for the duration of his public ministry.

Number of posts: 31 Registration date: 2009-10-05

Deep Purple wrote:

If you want to diagnose him with Bipolar I without a depressive incident, then you need to specify when the manic episode occured. When did he start and stop being manic? He's been like this for the duration of his public ministry.

If I gave the impression of a diagnosis, I didn't mean to. I'm only in the position to point out symptoms that I recognize and ask him to seek help, which I've done.