I have been thinking about breaking with my parents, which is a situation that would have never entered my mind before coming across FDR. So before I proceed I want to get a second opinion. I would start off by saying that I have had no direct contact with Stefan, never given him money, have participated only a few times on his board, ect. I am not trying to get approval of others by deFoo-ing as I have no association with FDR and don't want internet relationships. I have simply listened to his ideas and want to live a better life, whether I apply his views to my life or not.

I want to listen to other ideas on the subject of family too, particularly from those who have had children deFoo or those who are familiar with FDR. I don't know if this is the right forum to do so, but if not I will explore the topic on my own or elsewhere.

The first question I have is, what responsibility (if any) do I have for my parents happiness? Thoughtful comments would be appreciated.

hi 2defoo,

good that you're considering this question from various angles, and I'm sorry to hear that you're in a situation in which you are thinking about defooing.

I of course don't know what your situation is like and even if you were to explain it in some detail here, that may not be enough to give any good advice.

I would strongly suggest you talk to a therapist, explain him/her your situation, and go from there.

qua responsibility to parents: that too depends on the situation so I can't say anything about it as it pertains to your situation. I think in general it is fair to take into account how one's actions could affect parents' happiness (and I think for most people such feelings of sympathy come quite naturally, even if the relationship is troubled to a greater or lesser degree), but that doesn't mean one must not do things that would make one's parents less happy, as any concrete decision depends on your own happiness, on what the parents have done in the past or are doing now, and probably a host of other things.



(it may also be an idea, but I could just be being selfish here because I'm curious to know, to play to the therapist a podcast (for example the one with Tom) Stef did about defooing, so that you could get a therapist's take on his approach, and for him/her to understand where you may be partially coming from re your thoughts about defooing.

Hope this helps a bit.

I agree with everything Conrad just said. And I am very sorry to hear that you are going through these challenges.

As far as Molyneux's views go, I think his advice is certainly as good as any other person who is offering a blanket solution for every individual's problems. You might want to see what happens if you consult a therapist who has a slightly larger toolbox.

I'm a strong advocate of relationship counseling, so if there's any way to get your parent(s) in there with you, so much the better. I'd also be curious to hear your therapist's take on Molyneux's conversation with Tom.

Your question is huge. I think Molyneux has a point when he says that all relationships, including family, are voluntary. I personally think you owe a little kindness to people who did the best they could to provide and care for you. However, it doesn't extend so far that providing for your own parents' happiness is harmful to you. You should not be expected to manage their happiness if that act brings you nothing but profound unhappiness.

However, I'd want to spend quite a lof of time on why that is, before a drastic step such defooing. It sounds so simple, but sometimes people don't get along because they don't understand how the other party communicates and how they need to receive communication. Everyone's different, and it's sad how often we go to war with each other without truly understanding our feelings or theirs. Sometimes an expert third party can help sort that out.

2defoo,

I have to begin by saying that you are the first person in my memory who is considering defooing who has ever come over here asking for a second opinion. Regardless of the outcome of your particular situation, I admire your open mindedness in trying to explore all of the options before making such an important decision.

I have experienced defoo from both sides. I have defoo'd my father, my sister, and my husband, and I have been defoo'd by a best friend of 30+ years, who I always thought would be my friend. I will say that after feeling the hurt of being defoo'd (it hurt me more than I can possibly express), I was influenced to leave fdr, explore limi, and reunite with the family that I had previously defoo'd. After feeling that level of pain, I realized I did not want to put others through it.

However, that is not to convince you one way or the other. I would advise you to consider a couple of things. First, rather than look at the situation as a matter of "black and white" thinking (i.e. defoo or not defoo) I would advise you to consider whether or not the relationship is at all salvageable. If there is something there worth saving, then I would advise going to an excellent therapist together and working on trying to understand one another better. Relationship counseling is hard work, but is well worth the effort. You may not be able to work into a close relationship, but you also may not need to break the relationship entirely. Perhaps you could at least come to a peaceful solution where you have worked through misunderstandings together.

Another bit of advise has to do with your question about whether or not you are responsible for the happiness of your parents. I would say no. I am a parent myself, and I do not ever want my children to feel as if they are responsible for my happiness. As a parent, I only want them to be happy themselves. So, in my opinion you are responsible for you. But, perhaps you should explore with a therapist whether or not you will be happy after defooing them. A permanent break with your parents might be something that will effect you negatively more than you may realize.

After defooing my relatives, I was not happy. It was very upsetting. As a matter of fact, I was miserable and nauseated....physically ill.

I have observed the long standing members of fdr, and Stef himself post on and on about their family experiences, their experiences with their parents and people they have defoo'd. Have they really gained freedom by defooing, or have they trapped themselves in a place where they can never gain true freedom from those problems? Do they really seem happy, or do they continue to post on and on about their anxieties concerning their problems, repressed memories, etc?

Perhaps true freedom from relationship struggles and parental issues is not gained by defoo. Perhaps mature adults meet with their parents, discuss these issues and work through them if it is possible to do so (if the parents are willing and reasonable people). After reconciliation with my family members, I came to the conclusion that for me life is too short for defoo.

Thank you for your responses.

Quote:

Conrad: I think in general it is fair to take into account how one's actions could affect parents' happiness

Quote:

QuestEon: I personally think you owe a little kindness to people who did the best they could to provide and care for you.

May I ask why in both cases?

All great responses; the one thing I'd like to add is an expansion of Nelle's point about "black and white" thinking. There are plenty of people who choose not to maintain particularly close relationships with their families once they reach adulthood. I think that is fine, and it's totally to be expected that not every family would get along all the way through the children's lives. But defooing (as I understand it) is quite a drastic step beyond that -- completely cutting off contact with your family. I'd encourage you to explore the question of whether this step is really necessary right now, and if so, why?

Like Nelle said, it seems like defooing often has the effect of trapping people in negative feelings about their past, with no recourse for resolving these through discussion with their family. Furthermore, families typically act as support networks, and choosing to defoo will cut you off from whatever kind of support network may exist in your family -- which is again fine, as long as you make the decision being fully aware of the consequences.

I'd say that there's nothing wrong with taking a physical and mental break from your family, but that defooing is something that should only be done as an absolute last resort, after every other avenue has been given a chance and has failed to work. Of course, as others have said, this all depends on your personal situation and history, so I'd echo the encouragement to go see a relationship counsellor.

I find much to value in the counsel you've gotten here thus far. Kudos to those who've preceded me in posting. Let me express my admiration for you in your having sought out the advise as well!

First, some preliminaries: I'll use bio-parent and bio-family etc herein as a means of emphasis. For me, to determine if I am a parent requires your asking my offspring. To determine if there's family, one needs to ask two/all parties. (and you might consider asking them to define the word family?

I am a bio-parent (of two grown/adult daughters), I am a b-grandparent, and both of my b-parents are still living and married to each other. I also have interactions with both immediate b-family and extended b-family, most of it being of the holidays varieties, but with some, it's more 'personal' and frequent. That said, over the last few years those interactions have been by and large casual, to frivolous if not superficial. I continue them for peace-keeping, hope of influencing, and self rewards. Regarding my own daughters, contact is pretty well left up to them initiating (as they're sadly choosing the typical "Americons"/Statists/religious route, some of which I influenced via my own blindness/selfishness and thus accept the consequences of).

On the question of bio-family "responsibility", I understand that my position pretty well aligns with Stefbans; the only caveat being, I've not kept up with him (seeing as how he deFOOed (deForum Of Origin) me) and I moved on. Family is first and foremost evolutionary happenstance, biological, and voluntary --for the children of course, at some age of reason-ability (generally teen-age). Other than the biological empirical factors, "family" is a concept, thus requires a meeting of two or more minds to define, thus determine it. [Those considering defining it, arguably would be wise to consider the history of the word, thus consider a dictionary or two.]
From the bio-parental consideration, at conception through birth and pre-adult (again generally teen-age), they could not know "you". Arguably, there's only a few reasons "you" even got here, typically their sense of natural/personal fulfillment or gratification, a sense of social obligation/enjoyment, cultural or religious 'reasoning', or bad timing (they f*cked and she got pregnant). Main point being, there was no "you" to know, so choosing parenting, good or bad, wasn't about choosing "you". Healthy relationship is about two "you"s, evidenced by it being both's choice to be in. Some culty individuals self-declaring themselves parents won't embrace that; much of contemporary AEnglish cult'ures don't either.
Essentially, when there's disagreement about whether a bio-family is a mutually beneficial relationship, the offspring's voice trumps any claims of responsibility. [I'd argue that there's no liability or obligations either; if it's judged mutually beneficial, then by all means enjoy it for all it's worth; if reason allows you to see something you'd like to acknowledge or reward in return, then do so, etc; arguably, as a social prioritization factor, family has value regarding care taking, etc]
I don't know that the undue influence aspect of the psychology dynamic of adult-parent to adult-offspring can be over emphasized as to how crucial it is to consider.

Of the counsel you've gotten thus far, the only critique I'd offer is, in considering therapy exercise caution regarding the weight given it (ie. authoritative) versus what you would get with general counsel. It seems to me therapists are subject to cultural influences/biases that most others are and whether that's of value to you will require detailed exploration and examination of their beliefs and what influences their positions. The subjective difficulty potential is you typically have to participate with them, which means paying them to really get at it.

Another consideration is to examine what "deFOO" means --or "has to" mean? I find it easy to slip into a type of revenge, spite, or payback mode here. Could the deFOO4u be simply to begin withdrawal? From my understanding, the objective of the deFOO is to seek your own integrity, peace, contentment, etc. I theorize that the degree a deFOO needs to go to would often be quite confirmed if it begins with a quiet, dispassionate receding and withdrawal.
I've also found that a deFOO with some individual situations can come about almost as mutual consent, or work both ways when you walk and talk your virtues/values. I've personally experienced this with several deFITs (Friends I Thought).

I would offer for consideration that the deFOO and deFIT decision is very tied to considering temperament and gender. It may be more emotional with females; it may be more combative with males. Which is the more manipulative is subjective, but perhaps temperament and gender influenced as well.

I would also re-emphasize that all relationships, including family if not especially family, are voluntary and as such would be mutually beneficial.

I would remind that all individuals who were adult age during the child's upbringing are inherently of the undue influence category. Here, if there's any difference of opinion about the aspects of beneficial and voluntary, by default the choice is the kid's. The honorable thing for the parent would be to respect those choices.

It is my position, that if genuine, natural parenting has transpired, the value of the relationship is generally immune to obscurantism by the likes of Fdr's here-and-there errors/propaganda. There may be temporary interruption due to such persuasion, but nothing on the order of deFOO as permanent (and "life" can be a four-letter word). Here, I embrace the saying "If you've loved someone, you have to let them go" (take your proverbial and/or literal parental hands off them). This is the talk I'm walking. If you've genuinely loved, equally, and as their self, love will return way more often than not. If you haven't, then deFOO2 is the regrettable consequence; seeking to make it perpetual when rejected is but further evidence of the bio-parent still being the child?

I wish you all the best with your choices.
And I'm not the best writer, so if I've confused you please don't hesitate to ask for clarification.

I am truly glad that you are sorting out all the options in this very difficult decision. I am also saddened that you are dealing with issues that are causing you to think about such a drastic step. I would strongly encourage the therapy. A qualified therapist will certainly be able to advise you and hopefully open the lines of communication between you and your parents.

I am a parent of one who defooed. I lost my child to a defoo a few years ago and still do not understand the reason why. My child chose to not have any kind of conversation explaining the dissatisfaction with our family. My child just left a short note as FDR encourages. I have not seen or talked to our child since that horrible day. The first thing I wonder when I wake up and the last thing I ask before I fall asleep is why the defoo happened. There are no answers.

My child was conflicted with the many things one is presented with while growing up. We had discussions about a lot of it and the rest is still a mystery. I wish that my child had done as you are doing and been honest. I would have embraced the opportunity to try to solve the conflicts. This has been the most confusing time of my life. I wanted only happiness for my child and I fear that the choice made to defoo will only pave the road for a life filled with complex issues. I have tremendous love for this child and there is not a day that goes by where I do not think about them. That will never stop.

You are not responsible for your parent’s happiness. If you asked them, I'd bet your parents would say they do not want you to make them happy. I really believe that most parents really only want one thing from their children. They want to see their children happy. There are no words to describe that incredible feeling. It starts by making those crazy, silly faces that parents make to get a giggle out of a baby. It continues with all the effort parents put forth in making certain that their children’s lives are better than their lives were—just to make them happy. Watching your child make the choices that provide a happy life for themselves is the greatest joy most parents can ever have.

I reckon this is the OP in this thread.

Ah. I see. If that is the case, from what I am reading, he seems confused as to the cult aspect of where he has been, and whether or not fdr is a cult. I wonder if he has considered speaking with a specialist in the field of cults. That could perhaps be very helpful to him.

if he is torn about FDR then an independent expert (i.e. a therapist) would be by far the best person to talk to. A cult expert may be good as well, but in a sense (only in a sense) that is already prejudging the situation, and it may be of less help in coming to terms with one's feelings, thoughts, experiences, etc.

Having a convo with Stefan (as is suggested in that thread) may or may not help (e.g. in the sense of "how does one feel before, during and after such a conversation"), but I doubt that it will if it is not accompanied by a conversation with an outside expert who has no agenda either way.

I think it was very courageous of him, not only to seek a second opinion here, but to now be willing to discuss it on FDR.

Excultist, I'll give you my two cents in case you read this. I think that just about anything has the potential to have a cult-like effect on people. This happens to the extent that they stop thinking critically and start swallowing whole ideas generated by other people. It's a tempting thing to do, I know. It's kind of comfortable not to have to think. To feel like you can just trust someone else to tell you what to think. But no one knows you or your life better than you do! Being able to think critically is absolutely essential for personal liberty!

In FDR's case, the content covered is often idealistic and necessarily general. It's still up to each individual to take the ideas they're exposed to and determine if and how they can be applied to their own lives in the imperfect real world.

As for the thread on FDR, I hope there isn't pressure for him to completely renounce LM. This isn't a case of good vs. evil. Perhaps we go a bit overboard at times, but the great thing about this forum is that there are so many people with so many different perspectives that it usually gets balanced out. I honestly feel like we have genuine value to contribute to those at FDR. A third-party, watchdog kind of perspective that focuses on the darker experiences that can result from participation at FDR.

I am not that guy.

And everybody seems to agree with the essence of the argument, that all adult relationships are voluntary...you all just don't like FDR as the messenger for reasons I don't care to explore.