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 FDR Freewill/Determinism

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Patience



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PostSubject: Re: FDR Freewill/Determinism   Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:59 am

mgeduld wrote:
I think Stef's more recent conclusion, that BASED on his suggestions about my parents, I subconsciously set out to wound him, is pretty tenuous.
mgeduld, was "Stef's more recent conclusion" part of your conversation on the Sunday Call In this weekend? I understand your call lasted about an hour. Did any of it make it to the Director's Cut of FDR1740 Freedomain Radio Sunday Call In Show, August 29, 2010? The podcast is about 50 minutes long. Was it possible to get a quart into a pint pot, or did your conversation just get lost in the editing process, I wonder.
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T.E.M.



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PostSubject: Re: FDR Freewill/Determinism   Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:00 am

Quote :
But -- in my experience -- free will is different. If I make arguments against it, after a while, a large percentage of intelligent, generally open-minded people will get upset. This has happened to me over and over throughout my life.

I know what you mean. For some reason people do attach a lot more significance to free will than is it's proper due. I personally tend to see most claims about morality or any kind of life philosophy as non sequiturs if justified by or following from a belief in free will or lack thereof.

However, many if not most people don't see it that way. Molyneux has said that basically his entire life work would become meaningless; all of his theories explored in books, podcasts, articles etc. (to which he presently attaches a high value) would become worthless, were determinism to be proven true; and he's not alone. I however don't see this as the case. I do disagree with Molyneux on a lot, but not because I'm a determinist (in some ways I actually might be a compatibist, but that's tangential). I think Molyneux's philosophy could make just about as much sense as it does now with some minor tweaks under a determinist framework, though I think it fails for other reasons.

So the issue is that a lot of people view free will as something absolutely essential to their life and worldview. Why this is I can sort of understand since I once felt the same way, but the way I see things now is so different that I can hardly remember why I once was so terrified by the possibility of determinism.

As I see it, a movie is deterministic yet I still enjoy a good movie. If I was very excited about going to see a movie I expected to be good and someone said to me: "You know, that movie you're going to see is completely deterministic. The entire creative process and production is long over with and there is absolutely no chance that it will be any different than what the final product created by it's producers is. All of it goes by a script, and whatever this predetermined plot is-- the movie will not diverge from it. Even if you don't know what the plot is before seeing it, the plot already exists and will merely unfold in a deterministic fashion. Doesn't that make you disillusioned? Do you still want to see it? Are you still excited by the possibility of a fantastic moviegoing experience knowing that it's just a cold, pre-determined, mechanistic unfolding of events?"

Well, I'd still want to see the movie and I'd still see it as meaningful (if it indeed did turn out to be good), because I already know that's how movies work. I see life in general the same way; as they say, "all the world's a stage."

So I suppose my answer is that despite how silly the person horrified by the discovery of movies being deterministic would seem; it would be understandable, if for some reason the person had actually gone through their entire life believing that movies had "free will," and could change their plot at any point during the viewing; and believing that this "free will," of movies was an essential part of why they're meaningful and enjoyable. Life in general isn't so different as I see it, the difference (i.e. why movies being deterministic is not so threatening, but for life in general it is) is that it's not so immediately obvious that life in general is deterministic, and it's more plausible that much of the meaning and enjoyment of life is intricately and inseparably tied to free will. Consequently, this belief is widespread and thoughts to the contrary seem threatening. In my view, however, just as a believer in the free will of movies could come to view movies as still meaningful despite a lack of free will (and in some ways more meaningful) so can anyone who puts in some thinking time towards the issue come to see life in general as meaningful, and in some ways more meaningful under determinism.

Sorry for being so long winded... Having written it out I'm not even sure if this is an answer to the exact the question you were posing... hopefully it's in the right ballpark.
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mgeduld



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PostSubject: Re: FDR Freewill/Determinism   Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:12 am

I hadn't realized the Sunday show was up yet. In any case, I haven't heard it. But your estimate of the amount of time we talked sounds about right.

When I talked to Stef (and I'm going by memory here), he suggested (at one point he said he was positive of this, at other times he said it was just a possibility) that I had alerted him to the metafilter thread in order to hurt him, and that I'd wanted to hurt him because I was subconsciously blaming him for claiming, in an earlier podcast, that my parents had abused me.

To me, the oddest part of that claim is that I alerted him to wound him. I didn't start the thread on metafilter. All I did was email him and say, "Hey, people are talking about you over there." And I posted something similar to FDR, because I wanted to give FDR members (and Stef) the ability to defend themselves.

If I did that to hurt Stef, then I've used that same tactic to hurt many people throughout my life. I have a strong ethic that it's wrong to publicly discuss someone behind his back. I have always alerted the person being talked about. I see that as an example of me following The Golden Rule.

Which is not to say that I don't also have deeper psychological reasons for doing it, too. But it's a bit tough for me to swallow that every time I've done this, I've done it to hurt people. And if it's not the case every time, I don't see why Stef thinks it's necessarily (or probably) the case THIS time. He spoke as if just the act of alerting someone that he's being discussed is perverse and suspect. To me, it's basic courtesy.

Stef then said that my attempt to hurt him failed, and when I realized that, I decided to call his Sunday show in another attempt to hurt him. Which suggests that asking questions is an attempt to hurt. Granted, I was asking questions about his integrity, but I don't know what to say about that. Someone running a community -- or any organization -- has to expect that. I run a company, and sometimes people ask me about my integrity. That goes with the territory. I don't have the right to expect unquestioning loyalty. I don't feel people are trying to hurt me when they ask. They're asking. As they should! They need to protect themselves.

I certainly didn't accuse him of anything. I just asked questions.
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Patience



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PostSubject: Re: FDR Freewill/Determinism   Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:20 am

His suggestion was a trick to throw you off balance. He has to win every debate and will fight dirty without any conscience. Don't try to analyse every conversation you've ever had with anyone else. He planted that idea in your mind so he could get the better of you. It didn't stop you so finally he ended the call and moved on.


Last edited by Patience on Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:21 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)
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mgeduld



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PostSubject: Re: FDR Freewill/Determinism   Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:27 am

Okay: Stef has just done me a service. He has made up my mind for me. He cut me from the podcast. (I haven't listened to the whole thing yet. If he's moved me from the beginning -- I was the first caller -- to the end, then I'm wrong, and I will post as much when I get done listening.)

He didn't email me, telling me he's cutting me; he didn't post that he had cut me. The content is just gone. He talked to me for an hour or so after the podcast. He was friendly. I told him I would not go on an anti-FDR rampage if I chose to leave, and I will keep that word. (Which is pretty easy, because posting ant-FDR screeds would bore me.) I can only guess that he thought, "Great. He's no thread. I'll just cut him from the podcast and that's that taken care of."

In my view, a community that does not allow itself to be criticized can not work. Or at least I don't want to be part of such a community. From what I've seen so far, LM is totally open to criticism. Metafilter is also open to it (people constantly question the mods, who make notes in threads making it clear when they've edited out content).

I didn't make any claims about Stef or FDR. I just asked questions. Stef deleted them and didn't even note that he deleted them. Too bad.

I had some interesting discussions on FDR. Many of Stef's podcasts are interesting and I'm sure I'll still listen to them. But I won't be part of a community that isn't open to criticism from its members. Which is fine. I will survive without FDR and FDR will survive without me. I wish Stef and its members well.
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Conrad



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PostSubject: Re: FDR Freewill/Determinism   Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:36 am

mgeduld wrote:
Okay: Stef has just done me a service. He has made up my mind for me. He cut me from the podcast. (I haven't listened to the whole thing yet. If he's moved me from the beginning -- I was the first caller -- to the end, then I'm wrong, and I will post as much when I get done listening.)

He didn't email me, telling me he's cutting me; he didn't post that he had cut me. The content is just gone. He talked to me for an hour or so after the podcast. He was friendly. I told him I would not go on an anti-FDR rampage if I chose to leave, and I will keep that word. (Which is pretty easy, because posting ant-FDR screeds would bore me.) I can only guess that he thought, "Great. He's no thread. I'll just cut him from the podcast and that's that taken care of."

In my view, a community that does not allow itself to be criticized can not work. Or at least I don't want to be part of such a community. From what I've seen so far, LM is totally open to criticism. Metafilter is also open to it (people constantly question the mods, who make notes in threads making it clear when they've edited out content).
WE WON! WE WON! HAHA!

IN YOUR FACE MOLYNEUX! MGEDULD IS OURS!!!

TAKE THAT YOU CANADIAN LUMBER JACKER!






(just trying to be mature about this is all)

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mgeduld



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PostSubject: Re: FDR Freewill/Determinism   Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:38 am

That and $2 will get you a ride on the NYC subway. (But not for long. The fares are going up.)
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QuestEon



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PostSubject: Re: FDR Freewill/Determinism   Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:39 am

Conrad wrote:
WE WON! WE WON! HAHA!

IN YOUR FACE MOLYNEUX! MGEDULD IS OURS!!!

TAKE THAT YOU CANADIAN LUMBER JACKER!


(just trying to be mature about this is all)

Oh my god. That's your best yet!
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Dylboz



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PostSubject: Re: FDR Freewill/Determinism   Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:45 am

Yep. That's about what I expected. Some version of the memory hole. That's why the guy is not a real philosopher, but rather something of a cult leader, a cult set up in veneration of his own personality. Much of the greatest philosophy ever done was undertaken as criticism of earlier work. Stef wont give credit when he takes ideas from others, and he wont accept any criticism from others, no matter who they are (he's had some notable dealings with well respected libertarian philosophers).

His is a static ideology, and he aims to keep himself squarely at the center of the FDR community, which requires constant spin and damage control. To acknowledge that any of his ideas need refinement or can be improved through critical discourse would be to admit that perfect ideas do not, in fact, spring fully-formed from "the big chatty forehead."

When he edits, he does so quietly, often as in this case, just omitting things, deleting stuff, and never explaining why or even acknowledging that he is doing it. Once again, he reminds me of no one so much as L. Ron Hubbard, who also started out as a sort of pop-psychology/alternative therapy/self-help guru.

FDR=$cientology for libertarians.

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Dylboz



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PostSubject: Re: FDR Freewill/Determinism   Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:46 am

LOL @ Conrad! Razz

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Conrad



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PostSubject: Re: FDR Freewill/Determinism   Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:46 am

to be sure, I had not expected he would edit it out

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mgeduld



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PostSubject: Re: FDR Freewill/Determinism   Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:49 am

Just finished listening to the whole podcast. The content is gone. And Stef doesn't mention that it's gone. I feel like I've just been (or not been) on reality TV.
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Dylboz



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PostSubject: Re: FDR Freewill/Determinism   Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:02 am

Conrad wrote:
to be sure, I had not expected he would edit it out

Why? When he's done the same to himself and his wife when he thinks better of leaving potentially embarrassing content up? It sure ain't the first time!

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QuestEon



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PostSubject: Re: FDR Freewill/Determinism   Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:05 am

mgeduld wrote:
Stef then said that my attempt to hurt him failed, and when I realized that, I decided to call his Sunday show in another attempt to hurt him. Which suggests that asking questions is an attempt to hurt.

I think you're starting to get a key insight into his psychology. It was at the heart of the bake/Allison issue, Shahar and many others. I've traced this trait back to his college days. (All documented on my site.) If you question Molyneux's ideas, he perceives it as an expression that you don't like him personally. He believes that academia rejected his ideas for that reason--they didn't like him. I can't diagnose him as a narcissist but few things tend to make that argument for me more than this unfortunate trait.

That's why I asked you the question earlier about "haters." We all get criticism, but Molynex refers to anyone who criticizes his ideas as a "hater." Liberating Minds is a "hate site." The critics on MetaFilter and elsewhere? All "haters." He takes it all personally.

mgeduld wrote:
In my view, a community that does not allow itself to be criticized can not work. Or at least I don't want to be part of such a community. From what I've seen so far, LM is totally open to criticism. Metafilter is also open to it (people constantly question the mods, who make notes in threads making it clear when they've edited out content).

I think that's it. FDR mostly just can't work and most people leave over time. And the saddest thing about it all is the brilliant man at the heart of it who could be doing extraordinary things.
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onmyway67



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PostSubject: Re: FDR Freewill/Determinism   Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:17 am

Conrad wrote:
TAKE THAT YOU CANADIAN LUMBER JACKER!

That was mean, eh. Mean!

Expect serious security hassles on your next visit. Coffee, doughnuts and a solicitous frisking. Maybe a YYZ gift bag full of plastic crap. Oh you'll see.

P.S. I hope your dumb wooden shoes are too tight, except when they're full of water, which is probably like twice a day.
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