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 FDR and Stef are being discussed at Metafilter.com

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Wendy



Number of posts: 98
Registration date: 2009-08-25

PostSubject: FDR and Stef are being discussed at Metafilter.com   Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:47 pm

It looks like it all started with someone viewing Stef's video; "The Story of Your Enslavement" and the conversation just took off. Here is the link:
http://www.metafilter.com/95084/Choose-Your-Own-Occupation

In this MetaFilter discussion, grumblebee is actually mgeduld from FDR. He starts out trying to be balanced in defending Stef as he states on this FDR thread:
http://hiderefer.com/?http://freedomainradio.com/BOARD/forums/t/27146.aspx

In one of his earlier Metafilter posts, grumblebee writes:

“I think some of his views are seriously wacked out, and he's been criticized in worse ways. But he also has some smart things to say, and there are some other smart people on his community (and some followers who just ape anything Stefan says).” (Note: The Bold links to the criticism of Stefan on his Wikipedia link)
"I really urge people here to take a look at more than one or two things on the site -- rather than just immediately ironic and dismissive. Even if you hate him, pay attention, because he has a lot of fans. So, at the very least, "know thine enemy."

Wait a minute – Isn’t ‘know thine enemy” biblical? He might be flirting with a-ban-donment.

Stef then feels compelled to respond to the MetaFilter thread even though his own community of followers CLEARLY don’t want to touch this ‘hot potato’. Seems they prefer to stay safely ensconced in the comfort of the FDR website just talking amongst themselves, where everybody tows the same party line, where no one is allowed to disagree with Stef for fear of being 'banned'. They justify their ensconcement with statements such as these:

“I agree with Ricky. I don't see the point of engaging with people who clearly have no interest in thinking critically.”

“It's easy to become impassioned about spreading new ideas and correcting misconceptions on other sites, but I don't see anything to indicate seriousness or open-mindedness there.
It's best to let people who are interested in learning about our ideas come here. I don't think you're likely to persuade anybody there and you'll probably just end up becoming frustrated. It's not difficult to see what you'd be dealing with. This is one of the less sophomoric posts:"

Quote :
(Quote from MetaFilter dialogue)
I'm not exactly sure what they're proposing as a sustainable alternative method to sufficiently organizing a large group of humans to get much of anything done. Because I'm sure we'd be able to have the electrical grid, water and sewage systems, communication network, internationally manufactured sophisticated electronics, and ready supply of nutritious food -- which this person no doubt took advantage of while making this video -- without any kind of central organization system. All of that would obviously just work itself out, somehow!”

One poster says: “Interesting note: they're "discussing" FDR and Stef but nobody over there is discussing philosophy or anything real.” So, does that mean that FDR and Stef are not about philosophy or anything real???? Say it isn’t so!!!

Sadly, after mgeduld views Stef’s rebuttal video his tune is changed significantly.

Mgeduld: “Stef, that was am excellent video, including your accurate critique of what I said. I am very sorry that I misrepresented so many of your views. I hope you understand that, in my stupid way, I was trying to cut through the noise and get people to listen. I should never have espoused your "views" without having really paid close attention to your arguments. I was out of my depth, becuse the Anarchism/political part of FDR has never been the part that has most interested me. I should have just talked about the parts of FDR that I DID know.
In any case, great work. I hope at least one or two people listen rather than just jerking their knees. If no one on Metafilter does, at least the thread exists and the video exists. And other people can always read/watch them.”


Well now that mgeduld has groveled and apologized sufficiently, looks like he’ll be able to stay.

FDR poster: “Just wanted to say that I really enjoy your presence here. Your extremely curious, patient, humble and intelligent. You're a good person to have around and I think this whole thing turned out well.”

Can anyone say ‘love bombing?’ Or in other words, now that you are seeing things only through our lens, you may stay and you are so wonderful now that you think like us.

Since FDR folk embrace and strive for honesty in all relationships, someone should let the MetaFilter people they are being discussed on the FDR website.
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Dylboz



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PostSubject: Re: FDR and Stef are being discussed at Metafilter.com   Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:16 pm

This is a Reason.com Hit and Run meme, but lines are toed, not towed. As in "toe the line, " not "tow the line."

Other than that... fascinating.

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Conrad



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PostSubject: Re: FDR and Stef are being discussed at Metafilter.com   Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:30 pm

i don't know what is wrong with mgeduld, why he is either not seeing or not acknowledging Stef's dishonesty in the determinism thread and elsewhere

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Argent



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PostSubject: Re: FDR and Stef are being discussed at Metafilter.com   Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:02 pm

It is curious, eh? It'll be interesting to see how long it lasts. mgeduld likes discussing ideas and has indicated that he believes that Stefan welcomes critical commentary. It's bound to come to a head at some point. Or maybe he'll show us that we were all doing it wrong. Wink
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Wendy



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PostSubject: Re: FDR and Stef are being discussed at Metafilter.com   Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:25 pm

Dylboz wrote:
This is a Reason.com Hit and Run meme, but lines are toed, not towed. As in "toe the line, " not "tow the line."

Other than that... fascinating.

And here I thought it was a boating reference. Thanks for the correction. Duly noted.
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Patience



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PostSubject: Re: FDR and Stef are being discussed at Metafilter.com   Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:58 pm

Argent wrote:
It is curious, eh? It'll be interesting to see how long it lasts. mgeduld likes discussing ideas
Mgeduld/grumblebee likes sharing information too.
grumbebee wrote:
Just to add fuel to the fire, here's a site devoted to criticizing Stef and his community: http://www.fdrliberated.com/. Here's another: www.molyneuxrevealed.com/
I hope some of the metafilter readers will follow those links and see another side of Molyneux.
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Argent



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PostSubject: Re: FDR and Stef are being discussed at Metafilter.com   Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:25 am

I looked at the first few responses to Stefan's new video in the metafilter thread, and it made something stand out in stark relief: Stefan does not know how to have a civil discussion with people who disagree with him. His toolbox includes attempting to convert (through psychological means or linguistic tricks), belittling, dismissing and ignoring. This explains so much about him. The relationship failures, the academic failures, his debate tactics, the authoritarian nature of his forum.

I mean, you'd think the video response to a metafilter thread would have been geared towards the people at metafilter. But it sounds like he was pretty rude to them, dismissing them out-of hand, causing them to do the same to him. This could have been a great opportunity to promote the site in a positive light (in the same way that FDR could have been an interesting "philosophical conversation", if not for Stefan's ego).

Great for him I guess that the existence of the internet has enabled him to set up an endeavour like FDR. Where, as Wendy said, he can surround himself with people who do agree with him, and make a decent living off of it. Not so great for his members that they're being given this model for how to interact with the world. You're not going to get far if you can't respectfully disagree with someone.
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Patience



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PostSubject: Re: FDR and Stef are being discussed at Metafilter.com   Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:04 am

Argent wrote:
I mean, you'd think the video response to a metafilter thread would have been geared towards the people at metafilter. But it sounds like he was pretty rude to them, dismissing them out-of hand, causing them to do the same to him. This could have been a great opportunity to promote the site in a positive light (in the same way that FDR could have been an interesting "philosophical conversation", if not for Stefan's ego).
I don't think the video response was really aimed at the people at metafilter. I think it was produced for the audience at FDR. Molyneux reminded me of a playground bully swaggering in front of his gang members, while they cheer him on, adoringly.

His response to metafilter was similar in tone to his responses to media criticism. Again, I think it was a show of bravado to impress his followers, rather than a genuine attempt to communicate with his critics.
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Argent



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PostSubject: Re: FDR and Stef are being discussed at Metafilter.com   Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:25 am

mgeduld posted links to fdrliberated and molyneuxrevealed in the thread at metafilter, and Greg M questioned him on it. He made a stand-up post in response. All I'll say is that FDR's policy of under-rug-sweeping seems to be effective. The podcasts and videos (that haven't been deleted yet) present a tidy front, but if you dig deeper, you'll find a rat's nest of intellectual dishonesty. I honestly don't think you can read all that has been documented at LM without losing some respect for Stefan. Too bad we've fallen off the google rankings, eh? If they applaud him on his post, someone really should link him here. It would be rather disingenuous not to do so. (*Waves!*)

mgeduld wrote:
Greg, let me delve a little deeper into a response. I hadn't thought that posting those links might seem disloyal or meanspirited. I'm assuming (maybe wrongly) that you're questioning my motives along those lines.

I STRONGLY believe that if you know you're presenting something contentious, you MUST present as many sides to the issue as you can, unless the people you're speaking to already know about all the sides. In other words, if I say "God doesn't exist, and here's why..." I must, at some point, say, "By the way, there are people who disagree with me. Here's their website."

I am not saying that I give credence to all views. God doesn't exist, and anyone who says He does is wrong. But I don't have the right (or the abilitiy) to make other people come to my conclusions. They need to do that themselves. And if there's an opposition to my views -- however looney -- they have a right to hear it. I can't make people see truth. People need to see that for themsevles. And withholding information rarely leads to truth.

I also have a cards-on-the-table motive. We can argue about whether or not Metafilter members are smart people, but one thing about them is undeniably true: they are Internet savvy. The people in the thread who don't lose interest in FDR -- the ones who decide they want to learn more -- WILL go to google. And if you google Stef and FDR, those sites WILL come up. So there's no point hiding them. I tried to defend FDR in that thread. If I do that and never mention those sites, and then people find them, my motives will look suspect. I will come across as a propagandist. If I say, "Look, there are people who say good things and FDR and people who say bad things about it, but here's what I say..." then my word is much more credible.

This is one thing I HATE about most Democrats and Republicans. It's why I never trusted either group, even before I did an iota of thinking about their positions. Nearly every one I've ever met is a propagandist. When is the last time you heard one say, "I am a Democrat (or a Republican), and so I believe this, this and this. But if you want the oppsing view, read this"? I have NEVER heard that. My knee-jerk reaction to anyone who doesn't do that is to ignore them. (Stef didn't do that in his video. He could have posted it and said, "Some site criticized me, and here's my response." But he did more than that. He said which site it was, and he published a link to the thread.)

If I was doubtful about the integrity of FDR, I might have acted differently. (Of course, if I was doubtful, I wouldn't have defended FDR, either.) If someone is not going to be rational about FDR, then it's a lost cause anyway. It doesn't matter what they see or read. But for those who really want to know the truth, let them read those sites. Let them read those sites and look a good look at FDR. A rational person will agree that those sites are bullshit. FDR's devotion to truth will be obvious to anyone who really looks at it without an agenda. And if they have an agenda, they've already made up their mind, so no evidence, pro or con, will make any difference.
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Dylboz



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PostSubject: Re: FDR and Stef are being discussed at Metafilter.com   Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:32 am

Wendy wrote:
Dylboz wrote:
This is a Reason.com Hit and Run meme, but lines are toed, not towed. As in "toe the line, " not "tow the line."

Other than that... fascinating.

And here I thought it was a boating reference. Thanks for the correction. Duly noted.


Actually, while it's origins are somewhat clouded in mystery, there is some evidence that it IS a boating reference. Wherein, Navy recruits were asked to line up on a seem in their ship's decking for inspection, with their toes as close to, but not over the line. Also, there is a suggestion that it comes from parliament, where lines were drawn between parties a full sword length apart, so that when speakers got unruly and up in each other's faces, the call would go out to "toe the line," so no one got hurt. Lastly, in many sports, especially foot racing, one must "toe the (starting) line" in order to gain maximum advantage without being disqualified. Take your pick. But, the idiom has nothing to do with tow lines. Man, I find this etymology fascinating!

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KarenX



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PostSubject: Re: FDR and Stef are being discussed at Metafilter.com   Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:19 am

So, grumblebee has made the claim that if he knew of a member who had been banned for politely disagreeing with Molyneux--no snark at all--he would quit FDR. Is anyone here already a member? I think bake is the best, most recent example. I could join and do it myself, but I always hate when people join to say one thing and then never return. It makes the statement less.

But I'll do it, if no one else has an account over there. With links and everything.
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Conrad



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PostSubject: Re: FDR and Stef are being discussed at Metafilter.com   Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:02 pm

Tyler may also be a good example

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KarenX



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PostSubject: Re: FDR and Stef are being discussed at Metafilter.com   Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:22 pm

Aanndd... done.
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Argent



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PostSubject: Re: FDR and Stef are being discussed at Metafilter.com   Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:35 pm

Your "I'm Puzzled; Please Explain" link links to the metafilter thread. Other than that, good post! Will be interesting to see what comes of it. And perhaps you will get some more use out of that membership. Seems like a pretty cool site. Smile
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KarenX



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PostSubject: Re: FDR and Stef are being discussed at Metafilter.com   Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:51 pm

Darn it! And you can't edit posts. Now I'm the newb trying to fix mistakes in a second post and totally acting the part.
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