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 G'ah. . .no more cults!

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thatballguy



Number of posts: 2
Registration date: 2011-05-12

PostSubject: G'ah. . .no more cults!   Thu May 12, 2011 8:15 am

Greetings to you all (well I suppose you all). . .I've developed the habit of trolling in past forums, so now let's see if I can lay that aside in exchange for some actual meaningful/thoughtful "company"

*le sigh*. . .so here goes.

First off, I was raised by conservative Christians in Texas, was quite "on fire" for the lord for about 15 years, then kind of fell off the bandwagon and got into anarchy (in the meantime discovering that religions and statism are based on similarly flawed principles). I traveled around with renaissance festivals for some years, hit up some info-shops, and got rather disillusioned with anarchy, because reading 'zines only helped to give me the impression that anarchists were dejected 30-year olds living in their mom's basement without actually writing anything meaningful. Got into a native-american cultish setting in Oregon (centered around the native sun dance ceremony), had a short stint with black-markets and the fasting/mutilation of one sundance, realized that wasn't my scene, and escaped with my wife to Norway.

The renaissance festivals have grown rather cultish around the drum-jam scene (people getting berated for not dancing/drumming/"raising the energy", and for leaving early instead of going until sunrise), and several folks have studied bs for so many years they think they're tapped into the "akashic record", and rape as many different cultures as they can get their hands on.

After leaving the renaissance festival scene, drove with my my wife to my parent's house in Texas, only to find out that they're in a multi-level marketing scheme selling essential oils.

Around February of this year I discovered FDR's literature, and it gave me a bit of renewed hope for anarchy as a concept, because it seemed to be more than "just a 30 year old crying in his mom's basement", but alas, the cultish aspects of it started to get to me, though my wife and I have both enjoyed reading the books, we haven't really been active on the forums. Still, it feels a little disheartening coming to a realization of the false "logic" that is employed there, and the fact that it's really a 30-something year old starting some cult-like frenzy.

So on facebook, several friends of mine from EastTx have created a secret group which is basically all trolls. . .they go to different ETX newssites and troll on the stupid crap that comes through as "news" for Texas. . .I started trolling the members there because it was basically just a republican-bash frenzy, and I wanted to point out that the left is stealing from people just as much as the right. One of the members is a military wife, who just recently moved to Germany, and posted a thread complaining and asking for help because the military wouldn't pay for their PETS to get over to Germany...I replied with "as a taxpayer, I've already paid for YOUR trip...you're welcome, don't ask me for more money"

Needless to say the stateless philosophy isn't very well received there.

So, does anyone know of a more well-constructed thesis on state-free society that you can recommend?
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Elisha_ben_Avuya



Number of posts: 10
Registration date: 2011-04-10

PostSubject: Re: G'ah. . .no more cults!   Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:37 am

thatballguy wrote:
I traveled around with renaissance festivals for some years, hit up some info-shops, and got rather disillusioned with anarchy, because reading 'zines only helped to give me the impression that anarchists were dejected 30-year olds living in their mom's basement without actually writing anything meaningful...

So, does anyone know of a more well-constructed thesis on state-free society that you can recommend?


Well, most self-described "anarchists" today are just idiotic kids who run around in black ski masks at WTO protests and smash starbucks windows, or (in the past) they were bearded terrorist creeps who assassinated political leaders. But such clowns have nothing to do with philosophical anarchism, which actually has a rich intellectual tradition.

The following names are grouped by very rough categories that often overlap. I don't necessarily endorse these names, but most of them are at least serious thinkers and not "dejected 30-year olds living in their mom's basement."

American Individualist Anarchists: Josiah Warren, Benjamin Tucker, Lysander Spooner, Henry David Thoreau. [Honorable mention: Max Stirner, while neither American nor an anarchist, was nonetheless a big influence on the later American anarchists].

Anarcho-capitalists: Gustave de Molinari, Murray Rothbard, David Friedman, Hans Herman Hoppe. Honorable mention: Anthony de Jasay is a powerful thinker but doesn't strictly fit into any of these categories.

Left-anarchists: Peter Kropotkin, Pierre Joseph Proudhon.

Anarchist Legal Theorists: Randy Barnett, Bruce Benson, John Hasnas.

Christian anarchists: Tolstoy.

Fake anarchists: Noam Chomsky. Wink
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blackacidlizzard



Number of posts: 234
Registration date: 2008-05-21

PostSubject: Re: G'ah. . .no more cults!   Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:45 am

How could you leave out Goldman and Bakunin? For shame.

Elisha_ben_Avuya wrote:

Fake anarchists: Noam Chomsky.


"One of the biggest problems in the US today is the prevalent anti-government bias."

And you know the cunt is talking about assholes who plaster their vehicles in US or Confederate flags and yellow ribbons.

Also, Hoppe belongs in this category, not the one you placed him in.
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Elisha_ben_Avuya



Number of posts: 10
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PostSubject: Re: G'ah. . .no more cults!   Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:36 pm

blackacidlizzard wrote:
How could you leave out Goldman and Bakunin? For shame.

Elisha_ben_Avuya wrote:

Fake anarchists: Noam Chomsky.


"One of the biggest problems in the US today is the prevalent anti-government bias."

And you know the cunt is talking about assholes who plaster their vehicles in US or Confederate flags and yellow ribbons.

Also, Hoppe belongs in this category, not the one you placed him in.


Yeah, I totally forgot about Goldman, sorry. But I left Bakunin out on purpose -- he's by far my least favorite of all the philosophical anarchists and I don't want him corrupting any more minds from beyond the grave. (Half-kidding). Oh well, I never claimed my list was exclusive; there are lots that are left out. And my method of grouping them was also, I admit, ad hoc and idiosyncratic.

I know very little of Hoppe, but I've always seen him as a big ancap name associated with Rothbard and crew. His stance on immigration does seem pretty awful, as does his tendency to reflexively recognize the de facto legitimacy of state-conferred property titles. But since most of my info on him comes secondhand (often given by his detractors), it would be uncharitable to form any conclusions without reading him myself sufficiently to figure out whether these and other issues are (1) true and (2) bad enough to warrant calling him a fake. I know he has done some good work on economic methodology (admittedly unrelated to anarchism) and libertarian class theory, though.

As for Chomsky, yeah, he's mostly a joke, politically. He is, however, a very good cognitive scientist.
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blackacidlizzard



Number of posts: 234
Registration date: 2008-05-21

PostSubject: Re: G'ah. . .no more cults!   Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:03 am

Hoppe advocates societies where charismatic (and supposedly "responsible) "natural elite" have ultimate control over all land in their community, and order enforcement of standards in public activity and even speech. To protect the sanctity of property, people shall be expelled from their property if they advocate the "wrong" socio-political ideas. I believe this is in "Democracy: The God That Failed"
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Elisha_ben_Avuya



Number of posts: 10
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PostSubject: Re: G'ah. . .no more cults!   Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:29 pm

blackacidlizzard wrote:
Hoppe advocates societies where charismatic (and supposedly "responsible) "natural elite" have ultimate control over all land in their community, and order enforcement of standards in public activity and even speech. To protect the sanctity of property, people shall be expelled from their property if they advocate the "wrong" socio-political ideas. I believe this is in "Democracy: The God That Failed"


It's my understanding that Hoppe argues that a benevolent monarchy would be a "second-best choice" over democracy, but does not claim that such a monarchy would be somehow legitimate, and that he ultimately favors anarchy over bother monarchy and democracy. But I might be wrong -- if I am, do you have the pages / chapters that support these claims?
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blackacidlizzard



Number of posts: 234
Registration date: 2008-05-21

PostSubject: Re: G'ah. . .no more cults!   Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:53 pm

Elisha_ben_Avuya wrote:
It's my understanding that Hoppe argues that a benevolent monarchy would be a "second-best choice" over democracy, but does not claim that such a monarchy would be somehow legitimate, and that he ultimately favors anarchy over bother monarchy and democracy.


Yes, this is true, but what he call "a libertarian order," ie, one without government, looks alot more like some type of feudalistic totalitarianism. Read pages 215-218 here:

http://books.google.com/books/about/Democracy_the_god_that_failed.html?id=qARC56X5vxcC

'In order to protect property rights, we (actually, the so-called "natural elites" he has such a hard-on for) must strip people of their property if they dare to even speak in certain ways' is a large part of the upshot here.
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