Hi, there!

I know this seems like an odd way to introduce myself to liberatingminds--to jump in with a too-lengthy post such as this. For the record, I'm a libertarian who has been struggling with the idea of market anarchy for some time. (I'm embarrassed to tell you how long!) I go back and forth.

I've been lurking in quite a few forums, including over a year at FDR, reading and listening to podcasts, etc.

I think Stefan Molyneux has such a tremendous amount of good to offer. He's been amazingly influential to me. His views on the relationship of ethics and morality to governance are amazing. Yet I've never joined the forum.

Why? Because if you read it for a really long time, as I have now, you start to see an inexplicable streak of cruelty that seems to run through FreeDomainRadio. I just can't reconcile it. It all revolves around this practice of defooing that occupies so many of the people there.

(Interestingly, I'm also noticing that for some reason I'm afraid to join that board and ask this question there, but not here. What does that mean?)

On one hand, so much good thought is given to relationships, family, "the logic of love," true insight into your psychology, etc., but on the other--despite some fairly weak advice to have an open family discussion given in earlier podcasts--the practice of leaving your family without a word of explanation, without a hope of improving relations is privately (and sometimes not so privately) celebrated almost as a rite of passage at FDR. It seems like such a cognitive disconnect and I can't reconcile it.

Why exactly do you have to inflict extreme emotional pain on the people who (theoretically) love you most simply to adopt a belief system? I know this is facetious, but what is so fragile in those beliefs that they can't survive din-din at grandma's?

I get it that if you grow up in a family of mental disorders, of physical/sexual abuse, of unyielding insane Christian parents, there may be a time when you simply have to cut and run for your health. I apologize for my joke to any who have faced those awful challenges. My question is, what percentage of FDR defooers actually fall into that category?

I followed the pleadings of Kari Peterson here and on FDR, simply trying to have a conversation with Rod and all I saw was needless heartbreak. Now in the last week or so I followed this other thread:

http://freedomainradio.com/board/forums/thread/121341.aspx

Yeah, there are a lot of things you could hammer this parent for (like learning how to space between paragraphs!), but what I see here (absent any other information, I know) is mostly the typical mess of family life and growing up--good times, bad times, etc. Just human stuff and the crime of being imperfect. In his struggles to understand, he's met only with a cruel, stony silence from someone he loves. Is that really necessary?

From my perspective, he lays himself bare (knowing he'll get ripped for it), including the admission "I know I made many mistakes."

Stef seemed to ignore that when he replies, "Therefore all your suffering at the hands of your daughter is legitimate and genuine and real, while any suffering that she may have experienced as your child is unjust and false and manipulative." And he followed that with "Please understand that this is not a debate. Please do not post here again until you have spent some months at least in therapy." After that, a few other people piled on.

One person who called him/herself omglulz111 simply asked questions about the rationality of Stef's reply and was asked to stop posting on the board and then later banned altogether. I don't know who the person was or the intent. Maybe it was the same guy. Maybe it was someone with an ax to grind. I don't think that matters as long as the questions themselves were courteous and rational, which they were. None of them were answered.

More amazingly, someone named afruff23 made this incredibly logical observation: "You have all the information we have. I, personally, would recommend that the father ask the daughter how she felt through all this and try to reconcile the past. If that fails, take some therapy to understand."

Yet the idea of two family members talking about their differences and trying to reconcile seemed so out of place on this board, the comment just hung there, awkardly and ignored, like a fart in church.

Anyway, that's my analysis of the conversation but it sums up the impression I get from the board. Stef has had such an impact on me, and personally seems like someone I wouldn't mind hanging out with. Why does the board seem to have such a mean streak? Or more important, what am I missing?

Welcome, QuestEon. I hope that you find a more convivial forum here. I would say that I find myself with the same disconnect regarding Stef. I think he is brilliant and has some wonderful ideas. At the same time I find him dishonest, manipulative and hateful. I don't think the former makes up for the latter.

It's odd, isn't it (I say, thinking aloud), how someone who we all have an investment in because we feel he has contributed much to our sense of ourselves, or our understanding of life, or whatever, is also the one we feel outrage at because he is not who we want him to be.

He decries the claims of cultism, but it seems that only those who will take his abuse are allowed to stay within his inner circle. The rest get banished. I don't see how "cult" is an ill fitting description.

At any rate, I hope that perhaps you will be able to treasure the valuable things you've taken from his presence and just allow the rest to float on by.

Again, Welcome!

- NonE

Fart in a church! Priceless. I was at a wedding once where someone fated and it echoed through the church (designed acoustically to amplify and carry sound) as it vibrated the pew. Your turn of phrase made me chuckle.

And yes, that part of FDR IS cruel, and wholly illogical. Stef has issues with his own parents, and he relishes every deFOO as a chance to vicariously enact his vengeance. He has ZERO compassion or curiosity for parents, and assumes they are all inherently evil. He will not have kids, I think, in order that he never has to come face to face with the error of his assumptions about the moral purity and virtue of children or their inevitable abuse at the hands of their parents.

In truth, he wants to supplant the parental role in his followers lives with himself, and a little bit of Christina, too. That way, he can be the parent he wished he had. The irony is, he is at times variously cruel, abusive, sarcastic, domineering, manipulative, dishonest and every other evil thing he accuses parents of being, sometimes all at once! This is of course, not surprising, because, despite his assurances to the contrary, he IS a regular mortal such as yourself. He is wise in some respects, very thoughtful and insightful in his criticism of cultural institutions built on oppression, like the state and religion and even the family (though I think his solution to this one will cause more pain, and therefore harm to the world, than good).

Ultimately, deFoo'ing is required to gain access to Stef's inner circle, and if you profess to love your parents, and you extoll their virtue, he will either not take you seriously, or challenge your parent to run his gauntlet, to be vetted for approval to continue in their role as your loved one and family member, as if his one Skype chat could outweigh your lifetime of personal experience to make such a judgement. It is obvious that the joy taken in emotionally destroying the parents or family members who make the effort to engage FDR members on their turf is terribly unhealthy, and it feeds a dark side of Stef and his cabal, emboldening them to higher heights of cruelty each time they have a chance to take a shot at someone's desperate father, mother or sibling.

Yuck!

Anyway, welcome aboard!

Welcome to LiMi, QuestEon. It's appropriate that your inaugural post was a QuestIon.

NonEntity wrote:

At the same time I find him dishonest, manipulative and hateful

Dylboz wrote:

...he is at times variously cruel, abusive, sarcastic, domineering, manipulative, dishonest and every other evil thing he accuses parents of being...

I agree with both of these statements. There are indeed good qualities about Stef, but I have (finally) chosen to not "partake" in those qualities because of the cost of having to also partake in the bad ones; it's just too expensive for my taste to put up with the hypocrisy and passive-aggressive insults and dishonesty and condescension, in order to get the good. I can find the same good values elsewhere, like here.

QuestEon wrote:

(Interestingly, I'm also noticing that for some reason I'm afraid to join that board and ask this question there, but not here. What does that mean?)

This is interesting. I think it should answer your own question. If you have noticed a trend of hate and meanness at FDR and you are not even comfortable asking if your perceptions are correct, then you already know they're correct. And if you've "cased the joint" here on LiMi and found the opposite to be true, then you know (or think or feel) that at least someone here will be honest and civil.

Welcome QuestEon- I like your handle (Look, seek, search, ask for Eons) and of course "question". Glad your here. I concur with my fellow limites re Stef. I also read the thread you linked to. I had listened to the podcast of Stef and Colleen (I believe she is the man's daughter). In the podcast she was obviously confused and seeking advice from Stef in regard to a letter she had received from her father. A truly heart felt letter, honest and at best a great first attempt to reconcile. I was moved as she read it and shocked how Stef immediately analyzed (immediately meaning on the spot without reflection) to be a manipulative gross self serving appeal. The father offered to do what ever was necessary to improve he and his daughters relationship. I believe she was expecting and hoping to hear what she felt (the correct instinct to connect with her father). The right, fair and true thing for Stef to do would of been to encourage her to work with her father on improving their understanding and enriching their relationship. When I read the follow up post by her father I admired her fathers effort and tact in reaching out to her.
Stef's therapy directive was out of line and out of his area of expertise.
Anyway, welcome again... nice to hear you got the same vibe on that post too!

Well, some stories I heard from FDR forum members about their parents really are abusing and distutbing. I see no illegitimacy of running away from those kinds of parents at all.

That is not the case for every forum member though and we agree on your observation and has been ourself withstood the hypocracies of Stefan.

I wonder who the daughter is...

I am 96.75% positive that is her. He was pretty quick on the draw on that one. Too quick. He immediately vilifies the family and does not work to get to the truth of the matter.

I had no idea how old Christina is or that she lived at home with her family until she met Stef ... explains quite a bit in that case.

I will breeze through 451/452 later for curiosity sake.
I have experienced that childish laughter first hand. It took me by surprise, and back...to the school yard.

As for him being fascinating, I am glad you are getting stimulation and good things from his works. He provides me plenty of mental stimulation as well... More on that later.....lol

Christina is about the same age as Stef and I don't think her personal pre-Stef history was ever discussed, other than family & education & career.

I listened to two defoo-related podcasts last week and was reminded of just how manipulative and dangerous Stef is, how he pushes his own agenda onto vulnerable youngsters, and how downright insane he can sound during such podcasts (when during a defoo-conversation with a listener he just goes off on a rant about everybody trying to take him down and about his own childhood, seemingly completely forgetting that there is still another person at the other end of the line). i may write more about them a little later (have more time in a day or two)

Not to derail this thread, but: Yay! Conrad's back!

Or partially back, peeking in from an internet cafe while still on the road, or something.

How did it go? Start a new thread and please let me know.