| | UPB - show me the error of my understanding | |
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blackacidlizzard
Number of posts: 234 Registration date: 2008-05-21
 | Subject: Re: UPB - show me the error of my understanding Thu May 22, 2008 11:15 am | |
| | Dylboz wrote: | | Hmmm... Pacifism fails because failure to resist is tacit endorsement of violence? If I hit you, and you just sit there, it's fair to assume you approve... If I tax you, and you keep handing it over, is it fair to assume you are doing so voluntarily? |
I don't think it is a tacit endorsement in it's formulation, merely that the effects work out against the stated desire contained within the justification for the proscription. Knowing only that I am being hit without resisting or fleeing says nothing of my reasons for this, nor of my level of approval, but the likely effect is that I continue to get hit. Ditto if I pay taxes. I can take blows while abhorring violence, or pay taxes while abhorring taxation, but the specific action in both circumstances does support something I am opposed to. |
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Guest Guest
 | Subject: Re: UPB - show me the error of my understanding Thu May 22, 2008 11:37 am | |
| Uh oh! | Quote: | In On Being Certain, neurologist Robert Burton challenges the notions of how we think about what we know. He shows that the feeling of certainty we have when we "know" something comes from sources beyond our control and knowledge. In fact, certainty is a mental sensation, rather than evidence of fact. Because this "feeling of knowing" seems like confirmation of knowledge, we tend to think of it as a product of reason. But an increasing body of evidence suggests that feelings such as certainty stem from primitive areas of the brain, and are independent of active, conscious reflection and reasoning. The feeling of knowing happens to us; we cannot make it happen.
Bringing together cutting edge neuroscience, experimental data, and fascinating anecdotes, Robert Burton explores the inconsistent and sometimes paradoxical relationship between our thoughts and what we actually know. Provocative and groundbreaking, On Being Certain, will challenge what you know (or think you know) about the mind, knowledge, and reason. |
- NonE |
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blackacidlizzard
Number of posts: 234 Registration date: 2008-05-21
 | Subject: Re: UPB - show me the error of my understanding Thu May 22, 2008 11:49 am | |
| "Whenever I have declared myself to be a combatant of a particular group in a universally recognized manner, and I can kill a recognized combatant of another group who has not surrendered in a universally recognized manner, I will do so."
I think this this may go against the demand of universality in UPB, as not all people (who'se biological properties are not significantly different) in all places in all times are combatant members of a group.
And I am nearly certain it goes against said demand in that not all people in all places and times have the option of declaring themselves such in this recognized manner.
It is my take that the universality requirement put forward takes away the "out" of basing a maxim upon a "status" which is not describable by a pertanant biological difference.
A security guard can defend the property he is assigned to, but so can a passer-by who has no association with the property owners.
What do you think? |
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blackacidlizzard
Number of posts: 234 Registration date: 2008-05-21
 | Subject: Re: UPB - show me the error of my understanding Thu May 22, 2008 11:55 am | |
| | Quote: | the feeling of certainty we have when we "know" something comes from sources beyond our control and knowledge. In fact, certainty is a mental sensation, rather than evidence of fact. Because this "feeling of knowing" seems like confirmation of knowledge, we tend to think of it as a product of reason. But an increasing body of evidence suggests that feelings such as certainty stem from primitive areas of the brain, and are independent of active, conscious reflection and reasoning. The feeling of knowing happens to us; we cannot make it happen.
- NonE |
This thesis is supported by my experience... that's why I find so much value in re-checking my knowledge against external sources... |
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Guest Guest
 | Subject: Re: UPB - show me the error of my understanding Thu May 22, 2008 12:26 pm | |
| | blackacidlizzard wrote: | This thesis is supported by my experience... that's why I find so much value in re-checking my knowledge against external sources... |
And why I try to temper my inclinations to feel secure that what I know is "the truth."
- NonE |
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blackacidlizzard
Number of posts: 234 Registration date: 2008-05-21
 | Subject: Re: UPB - show me the error of my understanding Thu May 22, 2008 12:31 pm | |
| Indeed. Past errors still loom large in my mind to remind me, I do not wish to simply fade into "irrational absolutist version 4.7" |
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Phlogiston

Number of posts: 640 Location: NOLA Registration date: 2007-10-24
 | Subject: Re: UPB - show me the error of my understanding Thu May 22, 2008 12:51 pm | |
| blackacidlizzard Glad to see you back and contributing to some interesting duscussion. I'm glad to say I was wrong. When I said pounding I meant in the sense of playing catch. I's not like one person throws a ball to you and then you throw it back. Its like we all throws balls to you at the same time and you are expected to catch and throw them all back at the same time. But you are managing nicely.
Is UPB just a way to throw out some illogical theories? If all it does is sort out arbitrary illogical from arbitrary logical, its still arbitrary. |
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blackacidlizzard
Number of posts: 234 Registration date: 2008-05-21
 | Subject: Re: UPB - show me the error of my understanding Thu May 22, 2008 2:39 pm | |
| | Phlogiston wrote: |
Is UPB just a way to throw out some illogical theories? If all it does is sort out arbitrary illogical from arbitrary logical, its still arbitrary. |
Are you saying that the distinction between logical and illogical, the difference between "this might be true" and "this is not true" is arbitrary? Or are you merely saying that what remains in the "might be true" category remains arbitrary? |
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Phlogiston

Number of posts: 640 Location: NOLA Registration date: 2007-10-24
 | Subject: Re: UPB - show me the error of my understanding Thu May 22, 2008 2:52 pm | |
| I am saying that it is arbitrary what I call moral. Without empirical independent evidence. So part of what I am saying is that which remains in the might be true remains the logical yet arbitrary moral systems. |
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blackacidlizzard
Number of posts: 234 Registration date: 2008-05-21
 | Subject: Re: UPB - show me the error of my understanding Thu May 22, 2008 2:58 pm | |
| | Phlogiston wrote: | | I am saying that it is arbitrary what I call moral. Without empirical independent evidence. So part of what I am saying is that which remains in the might be true remains the logical yet arbitrary moral systems. |
Sure, but you have at least eliminated many "absolutely false" choices. Is this of no value? |
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Phlogiston

Number of posts: 640 Location: NOLA Registration date: 2007-10-24
 | Subject: Re: UPB - show me the error of my understanding Thu May 22, 2008 3:09 pm | |
| I think it only has value if there is a morality that is not arbitrary because by eliminating illogical choices you have less to search thru to find the non-arbitrary one. Yet if they are all arbitrary I don't see the value. |
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Stewart

Number of posts: 1202 Location: Boston, MA Registration date: 2008-04-02
 | Subject: Re: UPB - show me the error of my understanding Thu May 22, 2008 3:10 pm | |
| What value could it be? Suppose I offer you a riddle to solve, and yet I know that it has no single, correct answer. Is it useful for you to say, "Fine, fine, but at least I know what the answer isn't!" Or if I ask you to solve the equation, "X + Y = 10", and you say, "Well, I know for sure that the answer isn't asparagus." You may feel like you've moved forward a bit, but you're not really any closer to an answer, because there isn't one. |
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blackacidlizzard
Number of posts: 234 Registration date: 2008-05-21
 | Subject: Re: UPB - show me the error of my understanding Thu May 22, 2008 3:44 pm | |
| | Danny wrote: | But the point is, you can't disprove a moral theory with positive facts. That's just not the way it works. I'm not sure what moral theory would produce the statement "Soldiers are great because they defend our lives," but I assure you that no empirical evidence you could come up with would disprove that theory (unless somewhere in the theory, something were based on the existence or nonexistence of some thing, and reality were not as the theory claimed). I haven't listened to the conversation that you're referring to, so I have no idea how Stefan attempted to connect empirical evidence to a moral position, so perhaps you could give me an example of how you could do it?
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So the fact that soldiers initiate violence which directly leads to deaths of people they claim to be protecting is not empirical evidence? How tight does the causality have to be? Or is causality not allowed in empirical evaluation?
(...looking up a dictionary....)
edit - it seems to fit the definition.....
Last edited by blackacidlizzard on Thu May 22, 2008 3:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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blackacidlizzard
Number of posts: 234 Registration date: 2008-05-21
 | Subject: Re: UPB - show me the error of my understanding Thu May 22, 2008 3:51 pm | |
| | Stewart wrote: | | What value could it be? Suppose I offer you a riddle to solve, and yet I know that it has no single, correct answer. Is it useful for you to say, "Fine, fine, but at least I know what the answer isn't!" Or if I ask you to solve the equation, "X + Y = 10", and you say, "Well, I know for sure that the answer isn't asparagus." You may feel like you've moved forward a bit, but you're not really any closer to an answer, because there isn't one. |
Maybe with morality the question is not "provide me with the one correct answer", but "find an acceptable answer"?
Are you certain there must be only one answer? |
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blackacidlizzard
Number of posts: 234 Registration date: 2008-05-21
 | Subject: Re: UPB - show me the error of my understanding Thu May 22, 2008 4:47 pm | |
| | Conrad wrote: | the question is how the UPB-test is used to make these points. if they are not made through UPB then my arguments still stand as arguments against the validity of the UPB test. If they are made through UPB then I kind of fail to see how this is being done. it seems that you are using auxiliary arguments here. I don't think I am just being slippery as an eel here, though I might be. lemme know |
No, I don't think so... I think I have integrated what I find easiest to use from UPB into my general framework... I'm not quite sure I know what comes from UPB and what doesn't, though I think there are some things not explicitly spelled out in UPB which are easily formed from it (by itself?.... good question....)
I will attempt to address the bullet points you put up earlier, it will be a few days most likely... |
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| | UPB - show me the error of my understanding | |
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