| | UPB - show me the error of my understanding |  |
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Stewart
Number of posts: 1202
Location: Boston, MA
Registration date: 2008-04-02
| | Subject: Re: UPB - show me the error of my understanding Fri May 23, 2008 1:14 am | |
| | blackacidlizzard wrote: |
Maybe with morality the question is not "provide me with the one correct answer", but "find an acceptable answer"? |
Sure, you can look at morality that way. But then you're tacitly accepting that the answer is subjective. i.e. Its evaluation depends on whether or not you find it acceptable. you can't really argue that it's invariant, universal, or objective, if it depends on how you feel about it.
| blackacidlizzard wrote: |
Are you certain there must be only one answer? |
No, I'm certain that there is no answer at all. |
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Stewart
Number of posts: 1202
Location: Boston, MA
Registration date: 2008-04-02
| | Subject: Re: UPB - show me the error of my understanding Fri May 23, 2008 2:24 am | |
| | NonEntity wrote: | ... he equivocates.  |
What do you mean? All along I've been asserting the impossibility of there being an objective way to evaluate moral propositions. When I say there is no answer at all, I mean that there is no moral theory one can come up with that will have any real, objective authority. You can come up with any sort of theory you like, be it deontological, utilitarian, virtue-based, etc. or something else entirely. They're all the same, though, insofar as they fail to accomplish their goal of establishing a single, objective moral code.
It feels, to me, very much like comparing religions. Sure, there are differences between them, and probably some religions are more or less intelligible than others; but if you start asking questions like "What's the right religion?" then you're missing the bigger picture. And just like religion, the fact that there are so many moral theories, and that they're all mutually exclusive for the most part, should suggest something to us about whether the whole idea is nonsense from the start. |
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Stewart
Number of posts: 1202
Location: Boston, MA
Registration date: 2008-04-02
| | Subject: Re: UPB - show me the error of my understanding Fri May 23, 2008 4:50 am | |
| ohhh... I fail  |
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Phlogiston
Number of posts: 640
Location: NOLA
Registration date: 2007-10-24
| | Subject: Re: UPB - show me the error of my understanding Fri May 23, 2008 6:50 am | |
| Slightly off topic while I drink my coffee here.
Is thou shalt not marry an arbitrary acceptable moral rule? I mean whenever there are an odd number of people on the planet it becomes impossible for everyone to marry. |
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Guest
Guest
| | Subject: Re: UPB - show me the error of my understanding Fri May 23, 2008 7:43 am | |
| I've never had a desire to marry an arbitrary. I prefer concretes with well rounded assets and great senses of humor. Speaking of which, does a great sense of humor indicate exceptional intelligence? It seems it might, but I've not thought that one through.
- NonE (speaking of being off-topic!) |
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Phlogiston
Number of posts: 640
Location: NOLA
Registration date: 2007-10-24
| | Subject: Re: UPB - show me the error of my understanding Fri May 23, 2008 7:49 am | |
| NonE
Funny. Do you like Concrete Blonde? LOL! |
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Conrad
Number of posts: 5647
Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
Registration date: 2007-07-21
| | Subject: Re: UPB - show me the error of my understanding Fri May 23, 2008 7:53 am | |
| | blackacidlizzard wrote: |
Maybe with morality the question is not "provide me with the one correct answer", but "find an acceptable answer"?
Are you certain there must be only one answer? |
I am not. and i am pretty damn convinced there will not be only one answer and that ethics cannot be treated as an empirical and/or logical science. instead it is more like an art imo.
buf if your statement above is accepted the UPB theory/framework sort of goes down the drain, and the truth or falsity of UPB was what got this topic started. |
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| | Subject: Re: UPB - show me the error of my understanding Fri May 23, 2008 8:37 am | |
| Ha Ha Ha... doncha just love it when reality comes around and BITES YOU IN THE ASS!!!
- NonE |
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blackacidlizzard
Number of posts: 234
Registration date: 2008-05-21
| | Subject: Re: UPB - show me the error of my understanding Fri May 23, 2008 9:03 am | |
| | Conrad wrote: |
buf if your statement above is accepted the UPB theory/framework sort of goes down the drain, and the truth or falsity of UPB was what got this topic started. |
I am not certain that this necesarily follows. |
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Phlogiston
Number of posts: 640
Location: NOLA
Registration date: 2007-10-24
| | Subject: Re: UPB - show me the error of my understanding Fri May 23, 2008 9:12 am | |
| If I pick a morality and claim it holds for everyone and you pick a different morality and say it holds for everyone. Then what comes of words like Evil? I say you are for doing things against my morality and you say I am for doing things against yours.
It becomes pointless. It is just my word against yours.
You can say you are not evil because you didn't choose my morality and I can say you are. |
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Stewart
Number of posts: 1202
Location: Boston, MA
Registration date: 2008-04-02
| | Subject: Re: UPB - show me the error of my understanding Fri May 23, 2008 11:48 am | |
| | Phlogiston wrote: | If I pick a morality and claim it holds for everyone and you pick a different morality and say it holds for everyone. Then what comes of words like Evil? I say you are for doing things against my morality and you say I am for doing things against yours.
It becomes pointless. It is just my word against yours.
You can say you are not evil because you didn't choose my morality and I can say you are. |
Well yeah, it is pointless. In fact, moralizing is pointless even if you suppose that there is some objective morality. Because unless you both agree on what that morality is, then you're still having the same argument. So it doesn't matter if you think that your morality is better than someone else's; asserting your belief amounts to little more than finger-wagging. |
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Phlogiston
Number of posts: 640
Location: NOLA
Registration date: 2007-10-24
| | Subject: Re: UPB - show me the error of my understanding Fri May 23, 2008 12:14 pm | |
| No argument from me Stewart.
Well a little one. If theres an objective standard then if you say I am evil I will say yep or nope according to it.
I think Stef wants to implicitly add that if he can objectively call me evil he can do something to me and not be called evil.
Its all about correct name calling or finger-wagging but that is still all it is. Just like if you say 2+2=4 and I say its 5. Now you can say my answer is not logical. |
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Stewart
Number of posts: 1202
Location: Boston, MA
Registration date: 2008-04-02
| | Subject: Re: UPB - show me the error of my understanding Fri May 23, 2008 1:10 pm | |
| | Phlogiston wrote: | | If theres an objective standard then if you say I am evil I will say yep or nope according to it. |
Sure, but you have to know what it is first, right? Clearly there is little agreement on the issue. So either there is no objective standard, or there is one but it's impossible (or practically so) to know what it is. For various reasons I'm inclined to think it's the former, but the result is the same either way. If X, Y, or Z are immoral or moral, I see no practical difference. All that matters, with regard to how I'm motivated in my life, is how I feel about those things.
I think you're right about Stefan. I can't remember where, but someone asked him what difference it made whether their actions were moral according to UPB. And I think the conversation illuminated that morality was, more or less, basically just a badge for Stefan, like the labels "moral" or "rational" were ends unto themselves. |
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| | UPB - show me the error of my understanding | |
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