| | Walter Block about libertarianism and religion | |
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Conrad

Number of posts: 5647 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands Registration date: 2007-07-21
 | Subject: Walter Block about libertarianism and religion Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:47 am | |
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Nielsio

Number of posts: 708 Location: Amsterdam Registration date: 2007-08-19
 | Subject: Re: Walter Block about libertarianism and religion Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:54 am | |
| | Quote: | | The main reason religion sticks in the craw of secular leaders is that this institution defines moral authority independently of their power. |
It doesn't. God is good because it is all powerful. Power = the good.
| Quote: | | He who wishes to oppose statist depredations cannot do so without the support of religion. Opposition to religion, even if based on intellectual grounds and not intended as a political statement, nevertheless amounts to de facto support of government. |
[x] Asserting your way to victory [x] Bait and switch [x] Have you stopped beating your wife yet? [x] WTF
| Quote: | | It will at this point be strenuously objected that numerous innocent people have been murdered in the name of religion. True, alas, all too true. However, a little perspective comes not amiss at this juncture. Just how many people were killed by religious excesses, such as the Inquisition? Although estimates vary widely, the best estimates (see here) are that the number of deaths during this sad epoch, which took place over several centuries, was between 3,000 and 10,000; some experts, here, place the number as low as 2,000. Were it not murdered human beings that we are talking about, but considering solely the relative magnitudes, one might fairly say that this pales into utter insignificance compared to the devastation inflicted upon the human race by governments. According to the best estimates (see here, here, here, here, here and here), the victims of statism in the 20th century alone approached the 200 million mark. That is no misprint! To compare a few thousands of unjustified deaths with several hundreds of millions is unreasonable. Yes, even the murder of one victim is an outrage. But in comparing religion and government one must keep in mind these astronomical differences. |
Religion is good because... it didn't kill THAT many people. Nevermind the fact that it's FALSE and it continually mentally abuses the world population every day.
This is just sad..
| Quote: | | Walter Block would like to thank William Barnett II and Guido Hülsmann for helpful suggestions regarding an earlier draft of this essay. All errors, omissions and other infelicities are his own responsibility, of course. |
Pretty sad attempt by a number of Mises/LRC guys to try to make religion not look THAT bad. Instead of looking critically at these things, which thus would make them look critically at their past, the past of their friends, the current situation of their friends (who have children, etc), they choose to rather give it a pat on the back and pretend the problems don't exist.
Fail. |
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Nielsio

Number of posts: 708 Location: Amsterdam Registration date: 2007-08-19
 | Subject: Re: Walter Block about libertarianism and religion Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:43 am | |
| Also:
How does Block not recognize that communism tried to put down other religion because they were a religion themselves?!?
The state is god, etc.. |
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Guest Guest
 | Subject: Re: Walter Block about libertarianism and religion Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:53 am | |
| | Nielsio wrote: | Nevermind the fact that it's FALSE and it continually mentally abuses the world population every day.
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Got proof, brah?
Last edited by normaltim on Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Phlogiston

Number of posts: 640 Location: NOLA Registration date: 2007-10-24
 | Subject: Re: Walter Block about libertarianism and religion Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:07 am | |
| It seems his only valid point is that anyone who has thought independent from the state can be a check against it. Going from this argument all we get is we should be glad that at least religion can make people oppose the state. Thats a far cry from the stronger argument that we should be glad for religion that he puts forward. |
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Phlogiston

Number of posts: 640 Location: NOLA Registration date: 2007-10-24
 | Subject: Re: Walter Block about libertarianism and religion Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:27 am | |
| "Just how many people were killed by religious excesses, such as the Inquisition? Although estimates vary widely, the best estimates (see here) are that the number of deaths during this sad epoch, which took place over several centuries, was between 3,000 and 10,000; some experts, here, place the number as low as 2,000." Did anyone else notice how he misrepresents this? His sources are only about the Inquisition and comes from Catholic sites. If the state had any part he writes it off as not religious in nature such as the crusades or the French Wars of Religion that killed 3 million. How about St. Bartholomew Massacre This massacre touched off a six-week bloodbath in which Catholics murdered about 10,000 Huguenots. http://www.theskepticalreview.com/JAHPoliticsDeathToll.html |
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Guest Guest
 | Subject: Re: Walter Block about libertarianism and religion Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:22 am | |
| I'm currently reading The Authoritarians which I think I pointed to in another thread. Much of his study is applicable to religion and that is why it applies to this thread. It tends to describe, if not explain, the contrdictory behavior evidenced in Block's article. The book is the author's summary of a lifetime of studying how people's brains work, comparing authoritarians and those who are not. He's a professor in Manitoba. One of his conclusions is that the authoritarian brain is very adept at compartmentalization, and so it is not much bothered by contradictions as the contradicting ideas are always kept in "separate file folders" and so do not clash with each other in real time. And the thing which he finds really interesting is that the authoritarians will continue to ignore the contradictions even when confronted face-on with them. It's a really interesting book and I recommend it. Free download. About 260 pages. By the way, I find his testing methods exemplary in that he tests large groups and divides his groups in half, reversing the wording and potential bias in each half so that the errors based upon the way the question was worded, and our propensity to agree when uncertain, get balanced out. - NonE |
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Nielsio

Number of posts: 708 Location: Amsterdam Registration date: 2007-08-19
 | Subject: Re: Walter Block about libertarianism and religion Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:16 am | |
| | normaltim wrote: | | Nielsio wrote: | Nevermind the fact that it's FALSE and it continually mentally abuses the world population every day.
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Got proof, brah? |
What? |
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Conrad

Number of posts: 5647 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands Registration date: 2007-07-21
 | Subject: Re: Walter Block about libertarianism and religion Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:12 am | |
| Block's article about how true libertarians should support Ron Paul was quite weak and disappointing, and this particular kind of defense of religion is equally so. I understand the argument that religion has worked as a balancing power re the power of the state, and I reckon it has in fact worked that way in the West, but that leaves out what an alternative to religion could have achieved. and some of the points that Nielsio selected from the article are just kind of silly. Block can do better than this. (I do agree with the last paragraph about all the good people at the Mises Institute etc. who are religious and I don't see a necessary problem with being religious. but the arguments in this article are just sloppy) |
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Guest Guest
 | Subject: Re: Walter Block about libertarianism and religion Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:36 pm | |
| | Nielsio wrote: | | normaltim wrote: | | Nielsio wrote: | Nevermind the fact that it's FALSE and it continually mentally abuses the world population every day.
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Got proof, brah? |
What? |
How do you know religion is false? Or is this just an opinion? |
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Nielsio

Number of posts: 708 Location: Amsterdam Registration date: 2007-08-19
 | Subject: Re: Walter Block about libertarianism and religion Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:03 pm | |
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Laird

Number of posts: 332 Age: 28 Location: Wilmington, DE (the first STATE, lol) Registration date: 2007-12-28
 | Subject: Re: Walter Block about libertarianism and religion Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:55 pm | |
| There is no such thing as "religion" or "the family" at least not as monolithic entities. There are individual religious beliefs that are artificially linked into one religion or another, but these beliefs vary greatly. They could be true or untrue. So I really don't see any reason to support or defame "religion" in general. _________________ [INSERT MEME HERE]
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Phlogiston

Number of posts: 640 Location: NOLA Registration date: 2007-10-24
 | Subject: Re: Walter Block about libertarianism and religion Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:36 pm | |
| Its amazing how different the thread is here compared to the one on FDR. It starts with "good news", I guess because it will bring people to FDR. Its titled something like "A Well Known Libertarian Said" |
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Nielsio

Number of posts: 708 Location: Amsterdam Registration date: 2007-08-19
 | Subject: Re: Walter Block about libertarianism and religion Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:49 pm | |
| | Phlogiston wrote: | | Its amazing how different the thread is here compared to the one on FDR. It starts with "good news", I guess because it will bring people to FDR. Its titled something like "A Well Known Libertarian Said" |
It's not that different if you read carefully. |
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Phlogiston

Number of posts: 640 Location: NOLA Registration date: 2007-10-24
 | Subject: Re: Walter Block about libertarianism and religion Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:13 pm | |
| To be sure most see it there just as critical as here. Yet I don't think we see the bad argument as a good thing. Irony if a bad can be good. |
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| | Walter Block about libertarianism and religion | |
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